E40 - Leaving academia without burnout (with Dr Ana Amaral)

The story of our today's guest, Ana Amaral, challenges the typical "I left academia because I burned out" narrative. With a biochemistry PhD, postdocs at Cambridge and Karolinska Institute, and an incredibly supportive boss, she had everything needed for academic success. Yet something was missing - so she decided to leave and look for it elsewhere.

This episode explores how body wisdom and intuition can guide major career decisions, even when logic says to stay put. Ana shares how yoga, self-awareness, and emotional intelligence helped her recognise that safety isn't the same as fulfilment.

We talked about:

• Why following joy mattered more than following a predetermined path
• How to recognise when your body is telling you it's time to change
• Transferable skills from PhD to entrepreneurship
• The role of emotional intelligence in scientific environments
• Redefining success on your own terms

Whether you're questioning your academic path or simply curious about alternative careers after a PhD, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective on leaving academia with clarity rather than desperation.

Topics: career transition, leaving academia, PhD journey, postdoc experience, entrepreneurship, leadership coaching, intuition, body awareness, emotional intelligence, work-life balance, academic culture, career fulfilment

Let's hang out! 🎙️ Follow Moms, Mats, and Manuscripts for more conversations on academia, motherhood, and mindful living. And if this episode sparked something in you, don't forget to like and share the podcast so that more people can join our coffee-fueled chats! 

I'd also love to hear your thoughts and questions, and if you have ideas for future episodes, drop me a line. 

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Reach out: moms.mats.manuscripts@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hi, welcome officially to Month's Mass and Manuscripts. And today I'm joined by Anna, Anna Amaral, or should I say Dr. Anna Amaral, who has a PhD in biochemistry done in Portugal and around 15 years of research experience split between various places, different places, including two academic postdocs, one at Cambridge University and one at Karlinsk Institute in Sweden. Her research topics have been cellular metabolism and mitochondrial biology, first in brain cells and then in adult stem cells. She always loved to understand the tiny things happening inside human cells or cells in general and the role of metabolic pathways linked to other functions such as regeneration. Passionate about science communication and communities, she also engaged in various communication initiatives and committees, well at Cambridge and Karolinska. And this helped her to expand her skills and learn more about what she enjoyed doing. While she had a lot of fun working in research, she realized that she didn't want to become a PI and then eventually decided to leave and look for something different that fit her better at that stage. This happened in 2020. Fast forward to today, Anna is now working as a yoga teacher, a leadership and career coach, and a workshop facilitator. And her mission is to support people, connect with their human side, who she can really resonate with, and lead lives and careers that feel sustainable, fulfilling, and joyful, built from the body and heart beyond what their mind tells them they should be doing or what life should be. So I want to talk to you, Anna, about all of that. So thank you for joining me. Welcome. It's I hope it's going to be a really inspiring and exciting conversation because there's so many, so many things about identity, about leaving academia versus staying in it. Why? The questions, you know, why stay, why leave? How did you define this, carve out this new path for yourself? And I think it's going to be really helpful for people considering their next steps career-wise. But first of all, importantly, what are you drinking?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I'm drinking some coffee with um oat milk.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Okay, cool. I'm having a cup of tea. So I always say that I want this to be like we're having coffee together, we're having tea together, and yeah, it's a very just friendly conversation, not an interview. So I have some stuff prepared for you, but let's just see where the conversation takes us.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

And I so I did give this introduction, right? And you uh you've had a long career in research, long path in research. And I want you to tell me a little bit more about your journey there. First of all, how did you decide that you are like you enjoy science, you like science, you want to study it further, you want to do a PhD? What brought you to science?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah, wow, that's a long time ago. So I will just speak from what I remember. You know, I never really had one thing that I wanted to do, and I was a good student in many different subjects, which made it quite challenging for me. I like many things. I still today I'm a person always with many interests, and I like to explore different things at the same time. But somehow, I mean, first of all, I think it was also a little bit of a family influence because both my parents are from the science side, my math, my mom is um has been a maths teacher, my dad was a doctor, and so they always tried to influence me to go to these more safer um study and lines. But somehow I started to feel very interested in um actually was chemistry more than biology. When I was in uh high school, I really enjoyed these classes where we could use our hands and kind of be in a little lab. We didn't really have a proper lab, but I really enjoyed chemistry experiments where we could mix these different liquids and look at what would happen. Then also we had a lab, biology lab where we would have very basic microscopes. So I got very fascinated by these disciplines where we could interact with our environment and understand and explore. So I was very motivated by that, although I didn't really know what I could do after. I think I was always just driven by what I was excited about.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And when I had to choose what to study at university, I was looking through some different options, and um I was really into okay, I want to do more of these laboratory things. And so I was exploring chemistry, pharmacy, biochemistry, and then for some reason the plan of the biochemistry degree sounded more interesting through the different topics, and I just went for it. So I didn't really imagine myself working as a pharmacist in a pharmacy, and I just thought, well, I think I will enjoy studying this, so I will go for it, and then I'll see. That's what I decided. And then I really enjoyed my degree, and more and more the time we spent in the lab was really nice, and I really enjoyed that part. So for me, that was the key thing. I see.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, I was also curious, you know. When we are in this career, I think this is all we hear basically. You know, you do your bachelor, your master's if you need a master's degree, and then you go into PhD, and then you kind of like you are on this track. And at least in my experience and my memory, that was sort of the only thing that was discussed during at least my my bachelor years, and maybe even in my master's. That was the only thing that was sort of presented as available to us, and that's why I think a lot of people are kind of just automatically going into PhD programs without considering other options. Um, was that your experience as well? Or did you like really deliberately knew that you wanted to study further?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, I mean, I think it was not really, I mean, in a way, it felt like it was the natural uh step. It was not like I didn't feel I didn't have any other option. I know and I remember at the time this in Portugal we didn't know about many options to continue our career and with a degree in science. Things were very different from today. But I just really enjoyed working in this lab where I was at the time, and the environment was really good. I was very lucky to be surrounded by people who were very enthusiastic for science, and they just invited me, my supervisor, she invited me to stay and to continue on another project. And I just really felt like I wanted to stay, and I didn't know uh any any other place. And actually, at the time things were really quick, and she already had this idea that I should go to a lab in Norway to learn some techniques that I would be using later on. So we we agreed kind of that I would apply for a PhD, and so I was also very excited with this opportunity to go abroad and to learn about a new country and do something different. So it felt so natural. So there was not this phase where I was kind of thinking, oh, well, what will I do? For me, it was just natural, so I just went for it.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Okay, but still, I mean, it does feel like you you were following what was bringing you a lot of joy, which was working in the lab, right? So yeah, already back then you kind of felt very intuitive and connected with this, um, or like aware of what brings you joy, what fulfills you, right? So you follow that. That's that's very interesting. But so back then, if you're if you look back, if you like rewind a little bit to your PhD, would you say that you saw yourself continuing in this path? Or do you think that already back then you were like, okay, no, I'm just going to do what feels good, what feels right in the moment?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Or no, I think back then I was really excited as a scientist, and I think also going abroad opened my perspective of the possibilities that were there for me. I mean, Portugal is a small country, we don't have that many institutes or universities. And then as I went abroad, and then as I also started to go to conferences, I was quite lucky to go to many international conferences in my PhD. I started to contact with so many different people and get to know about more high-quality institutes and getting fascinated by other possibilities. Also, my experiences abroad were very positive. I really enjoyed being several weeks or months in another place, and I think also I was lucky that people were welcoming me so well, and I really enjoyed contacting with different cultures. It made me feel like after the PhD, I wanted to go to a different lab abroad, and I was really into like no, I now I wanted to go to abroad like full-time to really understand how it is to be in a very international environment. And because I had this experience in my PhD that I was working in a niche in a big group, and it felt like almost no one understood a lot about the topic I was working on. I was working with metabolism and brain cells, and it was like a very broad cell culture lab where people work with so many different kinds of cells and it had a more biotech focus. So I felt I had this experience of being in other groups in these short periods abroad where people all knew about this topic, like more neurobiology. So this was a goal for me to be in a group where we could all know and discuss more about neurobiology, and I could not, I could be not so alone. So this was my goal for my postdoc, and I was really like, no, I want to go for a postdoc because I I just enjoy this so much, and I want to see what else I can do and and maybe go to a place where I have more uh intellectual input and even more resources to work with. So this was what led me then to Cambridge.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Okay, and from there, so from Cambridge, then you moved to Karolinska for the second postdoc?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Okay, and then what was the moment that you realized that okay, maybe academia is not it after that happened?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Well, I think it was already um so things at Cambridge were very uh challenging in many ways. I mean, it was such a different environment, and many things were amazing, but also it was the time when I started to feel like um maybe I don't want to do this um for many for like on a long term. Um, I had a great working environment and found great colleagues, and honestly, Cambridge is this place where you can find experts in any field and it's so stimulating. And I also got to do a lot of stuff on science communication, which is great, like in the UK, they invest a lot on that. Um, but I also came across with this other side, like the true competitiveness of applying for grants and needing to publish high impact. And I think I was also not in a lab where things were so organized that I felt like we were so focused to progress on a certain study. I was very alone again at the end in my project. So I already at the time I started to explore other alternatives and talking to people who are in the industry because I didn't really feel this drive of becoming a PI. There was not one topic that I felt really passionate that I wanted to continue studying for many years.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

But what happened was that still the jobs or the possible jobs in industry were not didn't seem so appealing because, in a way, I always loved the freedom and the creativity of the academic research because we have a lot of freedom to explore what we wanted. Uh so I was exploring a few opportunities, but I also didn't want to continue in the UK at the time. It's it was almost five years I was there, and I had this personal desire to move to Stockholm. Okay. Because it was another city that was very fascinating to me. And uh I think I just actually took a very uh basic decision that I well, or what I want is to live in Stockholm, so let's just find a job that allows me to go there. And I thought it would be harder to kind of move area and move city, so I was a person with the academic experience. So I also knew Karolinska Institute, and it was a reference for me. And this is so interesting because looking back, I just remember that I subscribed to the job ads of Karolinska Institute, and I would was getting the emails every week, I don't know, about new offers to see if something would come up. Uh, and in the meantime, I was applying for other things. Um, and then at some point, when I was about to get an offer from another place, I found this position in Karolinska that felt like almost made for me, and it was on metabolism of adult stem cells. And then it was so easy. I just contacted the PI and we clicked really easily, and um, and then he offered me a position very soon. So after I went to an interview and etc. So yeah, things just happened this way again. So, and uh I think it was actually the best choice because uh I had such a great working environment, and it was my best time in science in my career through not only through because I had a really cool project, um, and I also had an amazing team. So this made me feel that I had all the conditions, and if I would still not want to continue, is it was not because of the environment, it was really just because of something mine.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Isn't it so interesting to look back at these things and realize how much like chance and randomness and also our own sort of personal desires played a role in it and not just kind of career drive and uh career directions, because I also have a couple of stories of complete randomness that brought me to places and yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I always feel that because I was I had found uh this opportunity as that I applied to go. It was um an institute in Heidelberg that it was very applied research and in partnership with pharma companies, and the application process was really cool. We had to write a project to apply, and then we were selected for a boot camp there where we would work in teams to write new research projects. And I honestly just applied for fun. It was also something that gave me a little boost of like, okay, let's just do this for fun. I don't, I have nothing to lose. I don't think I want to go to Heidelberg. That's what I thought at the time. So let's just do my best without pressure. And it went so well that then when that ended, they wanted me to, they wanted to hire me and give me a position. And I remember I was there and I was thinking, oh, why isn't this not in Stockholm? Because I really want to go to Stockholm. And then those days, it was when I found a position.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Stockholm. And uh and then it was like, okay, no, I want to go to Stockholm.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

So as an aside from the like general topic and the idea of the conversation I want to have with you, um, why Stockholm? Why what was so fascinating about it?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, that's a great question. Um I mean, I had this fascination with Scandinavian since the beginning of my PhD because I went to Norway for these few weeks and then I went back again for a few months in the middle of my PhD. And I don't know, I just love the organization of Scandinavian cities, and there is this peace, there is nature, there is just some energy that I like there. Uh, it's this contrast with uh more the chaos of southern Europe or the people look very polite, and so I don't know, for me, I just really enjoyed being there. Uh, even if people would tell me, other people, oh, it's so cold, and it didn't matter to me. Uh, and I knew that Stockholm was like amazing in terms of nature everywhere, and this captivated me a lot. I just found the city so beautiful, and there was just something pulling me there. Uh, I was there uh a few times uh before moving, and yeah, it's it's there's also something a bit unexplainable. I just knew I wanted to go. Um, and I I I'm this kind of person that if I have something on my mind, I prefer to do it instead of not doing and never knowing what would happen. So it was like, no, this is the time. Because I had already considered Sweden as the place for my first postdoc. And then there were a lot also of external voices telling me, no, Anna, that's so cold. Oh, what are you going to do there? And then I decided, no, I will not listen. I will go because I know I will enjoy. Yeah, so that was it.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

And in terms of the working environment and the kind of uh maybe the level of intellectual freedom or like how the communication worked, what was the difference and the contrast between, let's say, Cambridge and Karolinska?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

How did you feel there versus I mean it was it was very particular more because of my group, my boss, he was very supportive, very available to talk to us, uh, even if he would spend 50% of his time in Finland. But we felt that he was very involved. And um, I mean, overall in Scandinavia, there's also this um respect for people's private time, and work-life balance is already something very valued by default by society, so that's amazing. But it's interesting to realize that I feel it was the highest in terms of competitiveness, or like we aimed high in this lab and we wanted to publish high impact, but I never felt pressure around me. So I also felt that I was very valued for what I was bringing. And uh my boss made sure we all knew what we were good at and what were our strengths, and he would support us in doing our best. So I really felt free to give my best. And I think this environment was really good so that we would all we would also know uh where we were heading. So there were all these components, like our leader, he was amazing, like leading us to you know where you're going, you know what are your strengths, you know what you have to do, you know if you have a problem, let's discuss, let's solve it together. And we also didn't feel uh competition or overlap between the lab members. We were all very complementary, and all these things made it like a very good working environment and very great team, and we were very excited about work. So even if it was competitive in the way that we wanted to aim high, I never felt that we were there, like you know, working hard to see if we could get there. It was just like a fun experience together.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

This is so fascinating because it's like this is a very rare story, I feel. This is not happening all the time, and like both just in in life and on this podcast are really I heard some horror stories, and yours is very different because in now, and also when we talked off the record before, I had a feeling that you were quite happy and like satisfied with the research career. So the the decision that crystallized over time that you don't want to stay in academia was not because of the burnout and the stress and the environment and like horrible people competing and overriding and whatnot. It's just more so your personal kind of journey and evolution of your of your goals.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Of course, I mean, I saw a lot of those stories around me, and that also influenced me.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yeah. I mean, obviously, yes. I mean, when you when you see the what this environment can do to other people, it's it's of course affecting you as well. But can you elaborate a little bit also on the decision to leave? And what do you think was, I don't know, either missing from academia for you, or like what was your evolution that brought you out of academia? That what happened basically?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

It's not like easy and simple to explain because I really believe more and more that I know myself and I know other stories that we I feel we are slowly changing in life, like we are always evolving, uh, even if we don't realize. Um, and I I really love learning, and I started also to go into like personal development and understand how I can improve as a person. And I mean, already actually at Cambridge, we had this amazing department called Personal and Professional Development, and we had access to free courses on leadership and different kinds of things. So I opened my horizons to learn about these areas at that time. So leadership was a very interesting area to me. And then when I met this boss, I was always like learning from him on the spot. As I was working with this boss who was very enthusiastic about his own science or the topics we were working on, so like intestinal regeneration and stem cell homeostasis and et cetera, I felt that I love because I love to feel enthusiastic about what I do. And I would, I was not feeling the same as I saw him feeling, and also a few of my colleagues. And I started to feel in me, okay, something is missing, and maybe being honest with myself, that many times I would want to continue working to feel the excitement around me from my boss because it made me feel so good, but honestly, it was not making me feel that good. Okay, uh, and this was what I started to question again am I doing this for them or for me? And am I am I aiming to publish a certain paper to please whom? And uh, I mean, I know, and I started also to reflect okay, what what motivates me at work? And I really know that I love to collaborate versus. Versus working on my own. And while we had this collaborative project, I was quite happy because this is what also drives me, and I like to co-create and to do things together. But again, I always felt that in academia, people always push us to no, but you should also do your own project. And again, so my boss at some point was like, I don't know, do you don't you want to do your own project? Which I find very positive, right? That supervisors do. And this also started to click here, like, hmm, but do I really want to do my own project? This means that I will work on this for at least three years or four to work to publish a paper. And it was all like all these little pieces together. You see, that on the moment, maybe I was having fun, but I guess we always have to work to think a little bit ahead and what where will this lead me? And again, I'm a person who wants to grow, and I could have stayed in a very safe place because I had all the conditions. Then they gave me an open-ended contract, and I could have just stayed doing my own research and helping a bit in the lab. I also was taking on some teaching opportunities, but there was just something inside me that told me that I was not excited enough. And this for me is so important. And I just felt that no, but I I have a lot of talents, and I know that for sure I probably can bring more value if I feel this enthusiasm, and um, maybe it's time for me to learn something new, and I didn't have the courage before to dare to go outside academia. So even if it felt hard because it was many years, I decided to trust myself and also tell myself there is never too late because I also don't like these voices, these opinions that tell people, no, you should not do one postdoc or only one postdoc. It's like all these rules, you know. I don't I hate rules. I like to follow my own thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And I will always look for people and opportunities who help me confirm that my rules are valid and not feed the thoughts of people who say, no, if you don't want to be in academia, don't do two postdocs. I mean, I don't know. It made sense to me. So and then it didn't make so much sense anymore. So I decided to shift.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

This is okay. So this is uh turning into a story of courage as well, because you mentioned safety and that you you could stay very safe with like contract that would support you, not like for for a long time if you wanted it to, and you could um just continue doing things that you liked, you were not maybe super enthusiastic about it, but you still enjoyed it, the environment was good, so you could have stayed very safe, played it kind of safe and small in some ways, right? But you chose to go for the unknown, and also, I mean, you mentioned that it was 2020 that you left. Yeah, did it coincide with the global situation?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, and then I mean, there are so many, also so many things that influences in uh in each time. So I I had been thinking already about this change maybe for a year, and I was even going to do some volunteering in Africa to take some time off, and my boss had agreed, but then the pandemic came, and this puts things in even more in perspective. So I was not working as much in the lab. I was actually volunteer, like not volunteer, I was working part-time at the hospital for six months there in Stockholm to help with COVID testing because I thought it was something very useful I could do. And then yeah, I had more time to think, and there was always these also I knew that I wanted to do something different. I had somehow talked to my boss at some point, I don't remember where he was, I think it was somewhere at the end of 2019, even because even actually he was really nice. He even offered me to reduce my time 80%. I was working 80% for a few months in the beginning of 2020 to start doing some courses around entrepreneurship, because I wanted to explore and I and he offered me this possibility. So Sweden is great for that because there's more flexibility. Um, and at the time it started to my doubt was do I stay here and try to change or do I go to Portugal? Because that's option also started to come up because I was away for nine years and I felt quite disconnected from my country, also feeling I want to come closer to my family. It felt so hard because yeah, I mean, you are away for nine years, it's a long time, and I was just coming on holidays, I didn't really know what was going on, and um but it was a different feeling of being abroad and not knowing when I could come home for like freely, and we didn't really know how things would were going to evolve, so that also waited on my decision, and somehow all the reflection I did in the free time I had, suddenly it started making sense to come home and and give it a try. I mean, I didn't have a clear idea of what I wanted to do. I I really wanted to study entrepreneurship at the time, so that was my idea to then see what would happen. Uh, so I just slowly I decided uh to come home at the end of the year, also, but with an open horizon. And it was like, okay, I never took like a long break ever since I did my PhD. So I also thought this could be the time that I had the possibility to do. So it was my decision at the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

So before we continue into more like your entrepreneurship journey and how you know you started walking and the way appeared for you for the the next step and stage of your life and career? How much would like so? Would you say I mean likely you still had some doubts and some worries, even though this decision felt like okay, it crystallized and it feels natural to leave. But how much of your identity was still like, okay, I'm a scientist and I don't know what I am outside of this? Would you say that you had this thinking, you the the this issue?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

I think so. It's it's um I I now I mean now back then it's been a few years, um, and I have gone through this process um of rethinking my identity, which I find so important. But it's of course like I worked most of my career as a scientist, and it feels like this is who I am, this is also how people see me, all I know comes from this world. Um, but I also knew I feel like my maybe my small advantage was that I I had done also many different things outside my academic scientist role that helped me to know that I could do other things. I think here the challenge was to believe that I could do them and be my job. So because it was, it's it's easy to do other things on the side and not have the pressure of being a job. Um, and then it was okay, can I do that as a job while I don't have so much experience because as you build these years of experience, people see you with a certain expert title, but in other areas like science communication, uh project management, yeah, we have experience, but it's like okay, now do I deserve to receive money to do those things? And I think this is a very sometimes uh very unconscious and can be very subtle process, but it's really there, and even if we don't realize it's like talking to us in the back of our head, yeah. So I also had to to go through that.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah, it is I I feel like it is, I mean, for me, maybe still a little bit of a work in progress, even despite many years, because it is so ingrained in us, and then yeah, you spend it.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

But I think also, you know, I was so lucky again because I spent several months studying, exploring these courses on entrepreneurship, on innovation. I was also collaborating with a friend in back in Stockholm remotely who had a startup, and I was helping him with some communication stuff, and I was putting that on LinkedIn, and I had also done like all these communication things. And then what happened was my previous boss who was here in Portugal, she knew I was here, and she had a need of someone working in communications at the biotech institute she was leading, and she ended up offering me a job opportunity. And I remember at the time I was a little bit in doubt of like, oh wow, someone is just inviting me to work on this area. Like she she knew me from before, she trusted me, and then she just saw that I had experience in this field. So she offered me this opportunity, and at the time I really felt like, oh wow, someone is trusting me to give me a job in this area, even if I had never really worked professionally. So I think I also had to accept that if someone else is trusting me, I should also trust myself and I should also just go for it. And I think there are these two situations, is like you have uh to trust other people, but then if you also want to do your own thing as I'm doing now, what can happen is that we are the ones who don't trust ourselves, and we are also the ones who have to tell ourselves, like, no, I trust myself. Why do you need other people to trust you before yourself? So in that case, it was someone else, but I also had to do my part, right? Because we can always have this imposter syndrome, like, no, she will realize I'm not so good. And I think this happened with me for a while, and then slowly I was like, no, I think I'm doing a good job. So, like, oh, I'm so grateful that someone gave me this opportunity. And now it's my turn to really show that I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah. I mean, our brains need a bit of proof, and like in your case, you got this sort of first proof by somebody else trusting in you, putting their trust in you, right, and offering you this position. But then, you know, even if you didn't have that problem, you would have started and you would have gotten this proof from actually action and working in there, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:12

No, but and I mean it, I think it's easier in our in the beginning of our career. We have very little experience. So all we want is an opportunity, right? And when that happens, oh, somebody's offering me a job, you go for it, and then you start building experience. But then as we build several years of experience in one thing, I think we, as we were saying, we start to form a certain identity that, oh, I'm very experienced and knowledgeable about this. But what about this? I mean, do you enjoy it? Do you think you could do it? Like, let's go. And then it's talking with that part of ourselves that starts to say, no, no, no, but maybe I'm not so good. I'm not that person, I'm that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

I mean, we're also, I think the majority of people are naturally a bit afraid of looking like beginners and feeling like beginners, feeling like they're not really yeah, experienced or doing a good job at something, and then you know, while you're building up this um this muscle and learning how to do certain things is is when you also gain more confidence.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah. You know, I wanted to comment something around that because I also realized like I love to learn new things and I love this feeling of trying something new. And I remember when I was a postdoc at Karolinska, at some point I started a new project in the middle of my job there, and I was setting up new techniques from scratch, like uh some things around sequencing and epigenetics that I had never done. And I was really excited and I felt like a student again, and I felt like my boss was supporting me. So it was fine. And I but I remember that he commented, my boss, that he was really happy to see me doing that. And he said, Oh, maybe some people so experienced as you would not do this because they would prefer to go on their like the things they are uh experienced doing, but for me that's very refreshing. So if I see that someone trusts me to do something new for me, it's the best thing they could give me because it's also rejuvenating somehow, and I'm just learning and building again.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

I guess in in your current career path, it's also something that you are experiencing a lot of like a lot of learning, a lot of new things, trying new things. Yeah. So we'll get there. I wanted to also ask you um, so at this the cusp of leaving, or after you just left, and maybe even before you got this science communication position with your former advisor, were there external voices that kind of felt the need to comment or to say, what are you doing? You're leaving first of all, safety, then everything that is so respectable, you know, so oh my god, she's a scientist, kind of maybe criticized you for not having the next thing lined up already and kind of leaving into the unknown and taking the sleep of faith into the into the void. Were there external voices that questioned or criticized, or maybe uh affected you in that period?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

I I don't remember to have had such a negative influence because um, I don't know, I think maybe the way I talked, I seemed quite certain of what I wanted to do, and I tried to explain people why. And I mean, probably many people find it scary to not know. But I I the way I talked was like, no, but for me this makes sense, and I also have the financial capacity to do this. It's like for me, this is not a problem. Yeah, I mean, for my family, in a way, they were also happy I was coming closer to them. So um, at the time I didn't see them so worried. Also, it was COVID, and so for the beginning, uh, it it was okay. So I don't remember to have had so many critical voices, more these people who were like um finding it scary, but not trying to make me change my mind. I think I was also just surrounded by very supportive people.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

That's great. Yeah. I think for for my uh side, like I I was surprised by how supportive many people were because after I decided that I'm quitting my PhD and leaving academia, I was afraid to tell people because I was afraid of the criticism and afraid of people trying to change my mind. And but I mean some people were, and um not that it really affected my determination, but still like it was a bit a bit like weighing on me heavy. So it's so lovely that I guess you know, maybe you just projected so much confidence that people were like, no, this is this is a wall I cannot really break. But that's that's great that you had a lot of support, and you know, maybe again for for both of us it was 20 years that it coincided with pandemic, and everybody was a little bit lost, and like what's going on. So um there was a bit of like maybe space, so maybe a positive thing that came out of that is that there was a bit of space to like question things and think about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

No, I think I remember also to talk with my lab colleagues, and this was a process, and they knew that I was not super motivated to continue, and I was always open about like what kind of possibilities I was exploring, and I think I was lucky that, and I mean that that behavior helped them to follow my journey and to understand that this was just like a logical step, although, of course, they were very sad, and it meant that we would not continue to be so close geographically, and uh but I mean I remember that even one of my colleagues she was telling me, Oh, you will see back in time, like pandemic time, everyone is taking it so slow, you will not lose time. I really remember this kind of comments. Uh so even my boss, he was really supportive.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

And oh man, we need more bosses like that in academia. You you tell me these things, and I'm like, I wish, I wish I had somebody like this in my journey. That's that's amazing. Can you now tell me a bit more about so you moved to Portugal, you picked up this job in science communication? How did that then progress to like more the direction where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

This was also like a journey. I mean, um, as I told you, this was not really a job I looked for. It was something that came to me and it was it sounded like a nice opportunity. So I took it at the time. And it was like, I mean, it was a great experience for me to learn um about being uncomfortable because it was a very different environment. So it was more close to corporate. Uh, it was a biotech institute that had a lot of contracts with pharma companies, so they had a certain structure that was really not academia. So, and I was heading the external affairs area, which included the corporate communication. Also, I was uh leading an innovation program, an internal innovation, and uh, and then also I offered to start a leadership development program there because I really like this area and I I looked for the opportunity to do what I really liked because I was already like, oh, I will I like people, I want to do something with people, I didn't know exactly what. But it was a lot of different things, a lot of work and a lot of pressure sometimes. I don't know, it was part my pressure, part out to pressure, maybe, but there was a lot of work, and in the beginning I was alone doing everything, I didn't have a team. Um, but I also felt that I needed to understand what the job entailed so that I could decide how I was going to build a team because I was just so new there and I had very little support in the beginning. Like the transition was very short, like the people who were before. So basically, I just had to like survive the chaos and organize it myself and like you know, jump on the train while it's already running. Uh, so I really learned so much and I was there two and a half years, but I I don't know, I just started to feel it was also not for me because in this case, was really something that my body was also telling me that this is not for me. I mean, I really tried my best, and I know that I was very valued in the work I did. Um, I I mean I brought this fresh perspective from being abroad, and many people there were working here and had never left or had left just for a few short periods. So I felt a little bit of also a cultural clash in the way people thought, and I came with this desire of doing different things to change, and I realized like some things were not possible because also the institute has a certain direction that they have to follow. So it was like this structure that you have to obey. And I mean, I was used to being a small academic group where everything I wanted to do was easier to be done, and I mean, of course, my worries were different, so there you have to align with the management, which was an interesting perspective to gain. So you need to understand how an organization works and how are their goals, and then to convince them that the things you want to do align with your goals as well. So there was a lot here to learn and to understand, but at the end, I think it was really this my creativity and my need to create things uh was not uh free. There was not uh there was no space for it there because I had to do the things for the company and what they needed, and so in certain ways, were nice, certain things, because I learned and I was really happy that I had this opportunity to lead the project of a new website for the institute, which was actually a very cool project I did. I like to do projects and long things, and again, I could collaborate with people of different backgrounds, designers and branding people, and so we could do a very cool new website for I bet. Um, it was a little bit creative, so it was cool, but I mean, I don't know, I just felt, and this was a very hard decision again, that I felt that my way was not there doing things to help a biotech institute grow. I felt that my mission was not really aligned, and what I needed was space to create my own things and to explore what I could bring to the world. And um, it was a very hard decision. But um, when your body tells you, you feel it. And at least I feel it because I'm very connected to it nowadays, and it's just again, you remember I told you earlier that I want to feel excited about what I do. I like to wake up in the morning excited, and it has happened in this job because I really try to focus on the positives that I was bringing and finding the purpose within the role. And I also knew that the days I was feeling good and I was doing the things that are good for me, I could see it in a different way, which was what I focused on for a while. I didn't want to leave just out of frustration. Yeah, I really invested on taking care of my well-being and again leaving when I'm feeling good and knowing that I did everything. But yeah, no, I just felt like no, my body needs something different, and I will refuse to just stay here because I have a great salary and I have recognition and opportunity to climb the ladder.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

So this is when you when you say that your body was like communicating with you, this do you mean just the feeling like unsettled, or was it more actual physical symptoms and maybe some issues started to come up to say, hey, you're not in the place where you're supposed to be?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

I mean, it was some kind of feeling in my belly that I was like being closed and not expansive when I'm working most of the time. Uh, like you wake up in the morning. And you don't have this excitement that yeah, I'm going to do this and it's so cool. Most of the days like that didn't happen. And uh there was just something pulling me, telling me, no, Anna, this is not here. I mean, sometimes I I had I had a lot of anxiety, but it was more in the beginning because I had so much to take care of and I needed to feel more safe. But it was more this feeling that I was not feeling open and doing everything I could. I felt restricted. It's like I wanted to fit in a box to be there. I could not be my whole self.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

So again, as an aside, were you already practicing yoga at the time? And how did yoga come into mix? Because this, what you what you're describing is such an awareness, such a level of like connection to the body and to yourself that I feel like many people don't reach ever in their life. And I'm like in awe, sitting here one hour thinking, you know, you you felt that, you understood that at the time, and and it's it's pretty amazing because a lot of people really don't read the signals, don't notice them, ignore them, push through them, and you knew that this was happening and you acted upon it, which is also another big thing. Was yoga already at play?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Or yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yoga was. Um and for sure, I'm sure that yoga has helped me to have this connection. I was practicing yoga very regularly since um, I mean, many years, but like really since I came back to Portugal and 2021, I was practicing it weekly with a teacher I found here, and she really influenced me in an amazing way to have a consistent practice, and it's really an amazing practice for us to spend time with ourselves and with our body, and and also kind of get to know what's going on inside us. I mean, yoga is is a very deep experience, if you allow it to be. And my teacher always brought that like a lot of philosophy, a lot of self-knowledge. And also, she would always bring these reflection points to the classes that I felt like alongside this job. I was always going to this class and reflecting about my life and questioning everything. And yeah, I mean, yoga is uh is my pillar, it has become my pillar of well-being, of centering. And um, yeah, I mean, when you when you are practicing, you learn to pay attention to the different parts of your body, you connect to your breath, you are become aware of how you breathe. And slowly I became um very connected to the need of moving my body and understanding that when I don't move as I need, also my mind starts to suffer and to change the quality of my thoughts. Uh, I mean, I also did therapy when I was doing this job because everything was so challenging. And I think all this process brought me so much awareness of my mind and what kind of thoughts I'm feeding, how are they influencing my body, and it's and vice versa. So, all of this contributed to me really reading from my body uh to understand what I need. I think, yeah, it's a magical, I mean magical. It's it's what we are, and we should just learn how to use it, right? There's so much that we have that uh can help us navigate life. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

I I can absolutely relate to this because there is so much communication happening within you, and you like we are we are disconnected from it often in our modern lives and just in the daily kind of hustle and grind. And uh once we learn to tune in and kind of recognize and distinguish the signals, so many things become clearer and better.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

And also, I mean, I I think all these years here, I really dove into all these areas. I also did my coaching certification, and we learn to self-inquire ourselves and to self-reflect. And so I got more and more interested in questioning what is really driving me in life and what motivates me, and to observe in other people and to realize that a lot of this is missing, and I wish I could bring this to others. And I remember to talk with some friends, and they're telling me, like, oh wow, you are amazing and you are so inspiring, and like yeah, and then I started to believe that I could maybe do this uh as a job and uh bring it to other people, although that is very scary, and it still is.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yeah, basically, this was also a decision grounded in in the body and kind of feeling that this is your mission, this is your path in life, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, yeah. Also with the help of a coach who also helped me to connect the dots and connect, yeah, these signs from the body, from the mind. And and I think slowly I also got to realize that I again, when you start to learn about all this information you carry with yourself and the ability to feel and to feel in others, I learned through these years that I have a high empathetic capacity that was ignoring in me, maybe because it felt too intense and automatically I decided to put it aside because it was too much to feel things around me. I had not, I didn't have this awareness, and now I learned that no, actually, I can feel a lot from other people. This is a gift, this is an advantage. How can I use it? Um, still learning that, but it's also something and I wish that I could teach a bit other people to do. Like we all feel things all the time, but we are not aware and we don't learn to identify that. We are just like using our mind thinking and doing stuff and whatever feels to whatever comes to kind of um challenge this situation. We put it aside, like, no, no, no, I don't want to feel this, I don't want to feel this. This is too much. So uh also that's why I say I want people to tap more into their human potential, especially in a world that starts to be so dominated by technology. That's a big task.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

So now you're working more with um you mentioned that you're a leadership coach, right? And yeah, who are the people that you're mostly working with or you desire to help?

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Yeah. So I mean it's still a journey, and I'm still narrowing down exactly the people I want to work with, or probably this will also be an evolution. But what I started to do, uh, also linked to the yoga I'm teaching, uh, is like I really feel and I see around me this strong need for people to slow down their lives and at least to create moments to pause and to observe what's happening with them. So, what I started doing, I created this short program that I called Soft Reset that has very simple tools to help people slow down, like take pauses in their week, to follow some meditations I recorded and to ask them, how does your body feel? What's on your mind? What are you feeling? And then how do you rest? How do you replenish your energy? How do you use your energy during the day? How can you recover based on that? It's not just lying on the couch, it's a lot of things you can do to nurture your energy, to feel energized and alive again. And I think just this has been very useful. And I've worked with several clients last year, like mostly women who felt or very overwhelmed because of work and all the things they had to do. Um, and they they could not take time for themselves, or they wanted some help to take some time and to pause and to gain some tools to self-regulate, to find some peace. So this was um what I was running last year, and so it was very um very helpful for them. But now I want to take a step further, and I was already uh been building a bit longer program. What I wanted was to combine this part, then with for people to identify some deeper changes they want to do in their lives, eventually in their career. And so uh first helping them to connect with what their body is telling them and finding some balance, and then understanding how they can create this change in their lives based on that, and not because of whatever society tells them to do. So I'm planning to launch a longer coaching program to work with these transformations and I mean also working on leadership aspects, because for me, leadership is like everyone can be a leader to know how you want to lead your life based on which values, so understanding what people uh want to base their life on and how they can lead their life, um, setting their boundaries, communicating what they need, and connecting to themselves and to others to carve their path. So, this is what I I have in mind for now. Exciting.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

I'm really, really excited to see how it's going to go for you this year. Okay, maybe one of the last questions that I had in mind is so this throughout this natural like evolution of your identity from scientist to entrepreneur, would you say that skills gained in academia are helping your entrepreneurship journey or which skills are helping and which skills are maybe didn't transfer very well and are hindering the pro or skills, not skills, but maybe like some conditioning that is maybe hindering um the process a little bit. Do you think there is something like that?

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Yeah, so in terms of skills, for sure. For me, doing a PhD is a really amazing experience because I think a PhD in my experience has helped me to navigate uncertainty and solve problems. I think that's the key thing because you face problems all the time. And when we start a thesis, although we have a plan, we have no idea how it will go, and we all know it never works according to what's written, right? It's kind of just an idea. So for me, entrepreneurship is that way. And honestly, I love it because I love solving problems all the time. The only challenge is that we need to sustain ourselves financially as we go. And in the beginning, there's so much, so much to experiment to put in place. Um, but hopefully I'll I'll get there. So I just love this environment of having a problem in front of me and understanding what I need to solve it and what do I need to learn? Because this is also what we do in the PhD. You then understand, okay, I need to learn this technique, let's go. I need to read these papers to know more about this topic. And now I'm learning about marketing and sales and business, so it's other areas, but I know what I will need to go learn to solve my problems and build my thing because I know I want to get to that place. So also setting a goal and understanding what are the small steps to get there. So I think this is what I take from my academic time. Um, also trying to be creative in the way I do things, not taking the um the defeat or the the um how do I say this, when we aren't successful, not taking it so personally. That's not so easy, but it's also like something important to to have with us. Uh, and you said you asked also what could be uh obstacles.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

I think, and one thing that today I value a lot is I don't want to and I don't make all my decisions from my mind, and I don't need a proof uh that uh I will only do things that were proven to work. I like to follow my intuition. And if there's something telling me that I should go that way, and this is how it works, and I mean, especially working with people, there's so many unpredictable things. When we prepare a workshop, you also have to navigate whatever may happen, and then someone says something unexpected, and you need to understand how to move on and how to handle. So I use a lot more my intuition um than I was using in science, um, maybe more consciously. I don't know. But I feel like there there should be, I think it's see it's healthy to have a balance between what is scientifically proven and these models that we could use, but then there are many things that just it feels like our intuition knows, and I follow that, and things eventually work. And I think in science, many times there's not so much space for that because we try to we are taught to follow very rigid processes, and it feels like, oh, if you don't prove it in this way, it's not true. Um, but I mean there are also uh situations where we can use our intuition in the contact with people, right? In everything that is not like science data, and that it's important for people to practice. So this is just what comes to mind now. I think it's also using really my intuition and believing that just something that makes sense now is what makes sense and not needing to uh know everything and to have a protocol before I test something.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Yeah, I love that. Well, I think you're also, you know, just based off of your story, you're also the person who kind of naturally maybe follows that path a little bit more and is more in tune or more connected with the intuition. But in general, how do you marry and like this wu-vu side, the more yoga, eastern uh things, intuition and the more like logical, strict scientific side of yours, especially as you work with people who might be a bit resistant to the wu. A bit like no intuition, like what are you talking about? And I need to have facts, I need to have like everything under control and everything prepared and everything planned. And how do you get to that side of them that is more in tune and less logical?

SPEAKER_00 58:30

I think we need to go slowly, uh step by step. I think most people, to be honest, they know that intuition exists and they know this is there, they just don't know how to access it. And they agree that it's important to follow what our intuition says and not just what other people say, because probably most people have um stories that, oh yeah, I didn't follow my intuition, I thought I should do that, and then it didn't work. Then the problem is how, right? Where is that and how do I listen? That's why I want to do this work. It's like teaching people that it doesn't happen suddenly, like if you are not trained to use a part of your body, it will take a bit of time. But if you start taking that time and you start to notice, you start to uh meditate a little bit or to train how to listen to your thoughts using some journaling, or also just you know, practicing yoga or any other kind of physical activity that also helps you to be more in tune with your body, just increasing self-awareness. Um, I think it's a way. So it's trying to understand what works with some people and and helping them feel in their bodies the change. I think this is the most impactful thing that uh some people just say, Oh, I was just I all over the place, I couldn't stop. And now with your help, I was aware of so many different things that I didn't know. So this was this is amazing to hear, and just because we cannot also force people. I'm here to offer my knowledge, my support, but people need to do the work. This is the most critical thing. Like, I cannot force anyone if the people who are there and who feel like they've been too much on their mind, they would love more to tap into their intuition, to their body, so that they know like how to live in a healthier way in balance with themselves. It's it's really about it. Like, why should we push if we know that we are so exhausted, but we cannot do it in another way just because we feel like, oh, this is what I should do. Maybe start to question, do you tell yourself too much I should do? Maybe then you start to change a little bit just to understand that no, this is what I feel like doing because this is good for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

It is it is difficult. I feel like I mean, in society as well, we are kind of putting so much importance on the living here and the brain and the logic and having like um analyzing all the variables and uh trying to predict, like, okay, if I do this, then this will happen. And we maybe, yeah, maybe intuition is a little bit um like people are aware of its existence, but sometimes they don't really put as much importance to it or think that yeah, it's not going to guide me to to where um I need to be going or want to be going. But it is at least in in my experience and in my life so far, looking back, I'm thinking, okay, where when I followed my intuition and this like things that seemed random, but then were it in reality intuitive decisions, intuitive kind of guidance. I did well. And things happen that are now like I see the bigger picture where I ignored my intuition. I was not happy. So, like looking back at it, I can see that. And I'm sure that also you know, many many people probably have these stories as well, as you mentioned. But it's it's it is hard, and it's it is my struggle to kind of explain and um to some point persuade people that yeah, you know, you you shouldn't be only stuck here in the in the head, but you should kind of drop into the body a bit more and use the whole thing to inform your decisions and inform your life and not just the logical mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah. Can I just add something? So, something I also started doing last year that I want to continue this year, and it's like another idea I want to put out in the world at some point, which was to give workshops for scientists more on this emotional intelligence, um, emotional intelligence area, and make them learn a little bit about their emotions, and just purely in the sense that making them understand that this is helpful to improve their relationships at work and the way they interact in the work environment and then in their life in general. So it's not even saying it's like woo-woo things, it's understanding that you are more than your brain. And even if you are in the lab thinking about possibilities and theories, uh, you are a human who feels and everything you feel conditions the way you behave, and just bringing this awareness uh will help people not only to navigate the PhD experience in a healthier way on their own, but also with the people around them and becoming better colleagues. So, this is another of my big motivations that I hope I can bring, you know, just more human awareness, emotional awareness to people who are so rational, at least those who are open for that. And I mean, I was very happy that I was invited by a PhD program doing this, so meaning that they value this kind of knowledge. And I'm hoping that things will still slowly change, that the world of science will also recognize that for good science to be done, we also need good humans to be at their best with all their skills.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

No, definitely, definitely. I mean, things are changing, but it it is also a big part of why I do what I do as well, is because I want the environment to be different in academia and science in particular, because I want the people doing science to be um healthy and not just suffering and dragging their feet at work because they think that they should be doing something, right? And to be um to be inspired, to be motivated, to feel joy of discovery and curiosity, and not just this drudgery of like, oh my god, I need to publish a high impact paper or something, right? Um, yeah, so that's why I also felt like I need to talk to you because you're doing also somewhat similar work, and we are motivated by a similar thing to to kind of bring change, bring some impact to academia, to an environment where people are really valuing this kind of logical thinking and um very head, very brain-based decisions and uh interactions, but still, as you said, we are feeling human beings, we have emotions, and often they are informing the behaviors in ways that we might not realize and making the situations a little bit difficult in ways we might not realize. And it's it's so amazing that you are doing this work and that people recognize the importance of it also in PhD programs and institutes and inviting you to talk to them. So, yeah, way to go. Um, okay, so let's start wrapping up. Um I wanted to ask you for like last couple of things. So if you imagine a younger Anna in like in a PhD, let's say um, I mean, you you did say that okay, you were already connected with your intuition and a lot of your decisions were. Done intuitively and from following, chasing joy and excitement. But what would you like to say to her about how the path is going to unfold and maybe advice or word of wisdom that you would like to say to your younger self?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

Wow. I I think I would tell her uh never to underestimate the ability she has to create valuable things for the world and for others, and really trust herself that she has everything she needs to create valuable things in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Wow. I do think that this is something that so many people need to hear, not just younger version of you. Yeah, in academia and other ways. Okay. From here, maybe one last, last, last question. We did talk a lot about like um identity and this natural evolution and the the respectable career versus maybe things that not everybody will understand, but that feel natural and feel um like an yeah, like an evolution, like a natural progression for you personally. How does your how did your definition of success maybe change over time? What does a successful career or successful life mean to you now?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

So, right now, a successful career that I'm building actively and not yet there, but what I work towards is a career that makes me feel proud of the work I do every day, that makes me feel I'm really changing the world slightly to a better place, that I'm having a positive impact in the world around me, and that I can make enough money to sustain myself, of course. So it's combining these different things. Um not really worried about like titles and uh I I want to measure my success by the amount of people I can influence in a positive way and uh the good feedback they they give me about the work I do. Yeah and I mean my goal is not to build a big business and become rich out of that. It's uh I think my main motivation to be in entrepreneurship right now is to uh test if I can merge the freedom to do whatever I want with the freedom of still earning money that sustains me and maybe being uh even more flexible in the amount of money I can make, because I'm not only depending on like this fixed salary, but it's really about the freedom and the impact in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

Yeah, and I guess excitement every day about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

And being able to also do different things at the same time, which I love.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

Well, I mean, definitely this path provides a lot of what you were looking for: the learning, the sometimes steep learning curves and um interaction, communication with so many different people and um inspiration, fulfillment, joy, everything. So I feel like indeed, you know, as I talk to you, I do feel like this was a natural next step because it does fit the kind of person and the kind of like qualities that you embody and that you are looking for as well. Okay. It is it is also really exciting for me to, yeah. As I said, see where you are going to go with this and how things are going to unfold for you because it does seem like you're doing such a great work. And I I want this to work and to like for you to be able to help multiple people, help, you know, academics, not academics, whatever. Um very interesting, very interesting journey you had, and very unusual in that you are a scientist who was following intuition and following maybe less the brain-based decisions, but more the body-based decisions, and that you left your academic career not out of like, oh, I'm I'm just I'm just done because this environment is horrible and people are horrible and I'm so burnt out, but you left from a very like again embodied decision that I I did what I what I wanted to. I kind of I was happy here, but now like my happiness maybe lies elsewhere, and I'm gonna chase that. And that is, I think, a lesson that maybe people can take. That it's it's okay to pivot, it's okay to to change. Like leaving doesn't mean failure, it means sometimes it means a natural progression and evolution, and it's okay to follow joy and follow passion outside of maybe the mold and outside of societal expectations and pressures. And you're a wonderful example of that. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you so much for being here with me today. It's it has been a really insightful and inspiring conversation. I hope people can learn from it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

Thank you. It has a pleasure for me. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Thank you to all the listeners for being here with us, for drinking your coffee or tea or whatever you've been drinking on our friendly coffee chat. And I will see you back here very, very soon for more coffee fueled conversations and hopefully inspiring discussions with others. And see you soon.