Moms, Mats and Manuscripts
Moms, Mats and Manuscripts is a podcast hosted by Ksenia Volkova Tomaz, a former molecular biologist, yoga teacher and mindset coach for scientists, and mom. This is a space for honest, unpolished conversations about the parts of academia and ambition we don’t talk about enough.
Here, we explore the mental and emotional load of being a young scientist or high-achieving woman: the pressure to constantly produce, the identity crises, the inner critic, the fear of slowing down, the guilt around rest, the invisible labour of motherhood, and the messy process of redefining success on your own terms.
I share personal stories, science-backed insights, and yoga-psychology tools to help you navigate burnout, self-worth, boundaries, and the overwhelming push to “do more.”
Think of this space as a friend's couch, where you can have a cup of coffee, relax, exhale and be seen.
Moms, Mats and Manuscripts
S3E16 - Starting a family in academia: a conversation on fears, ambitions and the myth of perfect timing (with Dr Asya Martirosyan)
In this honest and beautifully chaotic episode, Dr Asya Martirosyan joins me once again for a vulnerable conversation about starting a family in academia: the fears, ambitions, cultural expectations, and the persistent myth of “perfect timing.”
We dive into the pressures placed on women in STEM to excel at everything: building a career, being a present mother, running a household, staying balanced and ambitious… often without any real support or open discussion.
We talk about:
• fears around motherhood and “ruining” our kids
• cultural influences on how we imagine parenting
• the myth that children limit success
• why academia makes family planning feel impossible
• why mothers are expected to sacrifice everything
• and how kids can also bring a different kind of motivation.
I hope this episode will be the start of a recurring series on motherhood in academia - because these conversations are deeply needed, and I plan to bring more guests to share their stories.
Let's hang out! 🎙️ Follow Moms, Mats, and Manuscripts for more conversations on academia, motherhood, and mindful living. And if this episode sparked something in you, don't forget to like and share our podcast so that more people can join our coffee-fueled chats!
I'd also love to hear your thoughts and questions, and if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line.
We're also on Instagram:
@moms.mats.manuscripts
@shantiscience_yoga
Reach out: moms.mats.manuscripts@gmail.com
I keep looking at my face and I'm like, it's not good marketing for what we're going to talk about.
SPEAKER_02:Wake up at five, do your routine, take care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Wake up at five, go to the living room to try to make sure that my son doesn't kill himself.
SPEAKER_02:And I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for babies. It's just like I barely manage with the cat.
SPEAKER_01:You know, at least babies don't have carry pads. So big plus. Okay, so welcome to our listeners. Welcome to Asia once again. I'm so excited to welcome you back, to have you on again for the part two that we promised. And today we're starting what I hope will be a regular series on the podcast. We had this conversation. It was one of the very first, I think maybe second or third episode with Ivna while she was still co-hosting with me. And we talked with her about her decision to start a family while she was still doing her PhD. And moreover, her husband was still doing his PhD. So that was like the double trouble, very complicated. But I am genuinely curious about family planning in academia and around academia because this, as we discussed last time, it is a very special environment. It's a very special kind of workplace with a lot of its own pressures, its own problems. And there are a lot of different considerations that go into the financial, finding the right moment, um, being left behind, quote unquote. So I am curious to explore that with you, with other voices, maybe other opinions, other experiences, and we are just going to talk about it in a very you know free-flowing conversation. You know, if there is something that um is very personal and you don't want to talk about, just stop me, then we can edit it out. And yeah, let's let's just see where we will end up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I'm so happy I'm again your guest because uh I enjoyed it so much, our first episode. And of course, as you said, we promised that we're gonna explore these topics because I mean, uh, as you know, I I would also kind of write to you every time I would have a tiny mental breakdown about the future and how to plan this. And I mean, also I'm so thankful that you were so vocal about your experience as a mom and also like how you planned it, because that helped me a lot. I don't know, I cannot thank you enough how much it just like affected also in a way a little bit of my decision because uh I mean when you're out there and uh we I also come from a very kind of conservative culture where it's just the whole pressure on women that uh the clock is ticking, and you know it's very common in Armenia to get married, I don't know, 20s, and it's it's it was always super normalized. And also I'm super thankful to my sister because she got married around 30, so that was perfect for me. She kind of paved the way, but yeah, so just the fact that you give kind of a platform for people to talk about their experiences, that's so important because either you get kind of extremities when you are like uh sorry, extremes when you're like um thinking about family planning because either you get this perspective of like super sugar coated from your mom's side that it's the best thing in the world. Don't remember anything anymore. Exactly, exactly. You will not remember anything, and it's gonna be amazing. I mean, and I I believe she's right and she comes from a good place for sure, but a lot of str and you also hear a lot of struggles, and then you're trying to find like kind of a truth in the in the middle when you're starting or thinking to start a family, which is I am right now in the in the same situation. But I think like to talk about it openly and I kind of have these conversations are so important, especially for women in academia, because it's just absolute mess, usually. Because if it's first of all, you have cultural pressure, if not in some sort of way, because uh every time we go to Armenia, we create a drinking game with my husband where every time people ask, When are you getting a baby? We just get a shot. Well, not anymore, because again, we're planning, so no more shots. But yeah, so this was um, you still have you still feel that pressure, but at the same time, there is a massive pressure in academia to go for maternity leave, to, and this it brings like a cascade of like issues with it. Um, so I mean, frankly, I never was pregnant, so I cannot really tell it for sure, but with all the quite like all the experiences I've been hearing, it's always this fear that you are missing out, you are putting your career on pause, especially in science where everything works very you know, fast-paced, and you have to do your experiments, you have to pull old niders. I mean, that's very hard, and it's like an environment that definitely doesn't support pregnancy, I would say. Um, I mean, I can tell from what I've heard around me is that we also do this kind of um equal equality type of um uh workshops, so like uh equal opportunities workshops is when, and the number one question is always there that how PIs feel when the the postdoc, for example, or a PhD is like about to be a mom or has a baby, because this is such a I mean, definitely not in the areas that I've been, but it's such a deal breaker for a lot of people because they believe that okay, if you have a baby, then you're not 100% uh present, you need to leave every time earlier, which I don't particularly agree with because I've seen a lot of people around me that have multiple babies, but they're great scientists and they're managing, so it's it's so many things to balance, like all these pressures of like, oh, the moment you have the baby, like you're just like out, you know, like you have these mom brains, and that's it, you're not never gonna recover from it, which maybe has some points of truth, but like completely kind of putting this pressure on women, it's just insane to me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I mean, I can talk about it like hours, but whenever you you you feel comfortable. But yeah, I mean, just to go back to your initial question because I was just going around it. So, um, how we decided, I think it was very rational, um, rational decision for sure. Um, definitely not an emotional one because again, balancing so many pressures takes a toll on you, absolutely. And at some point, and it's not in a negative way, but you know, we were like, okay, we have to get there financially, which we were not near at all because I was a PhD student, my husband was just starting to work, so yeah, it was absolutely not there yet. Um, plus, we moved to a new city, so this also brings a lot of kind of challenges, but at the same time, we were also thinking, like, come on, we still are young, so we can definitely, you know, enjoy our time together and then really rationally think about you know planning the planning a baby because now I also I'm finishing my last year contract and I'm like objectively thinking of my alternative options, and there are so many things going on that yeah, it's hard to balance. It's really I don't know how I'm gonna do it. So, all these suggestions of yours really help me a lot. Um, but it definitely was a rational decision because otherwise not possible, at least not possible for us. Because sometimes I see people just having like five kids like out of the blue, and I'm like, wow, kudos to you. Um but and I think it was partially very rational just because of all the struggles we've seen people face, and especially in academia, where there's no better time to have a baby in academia. I really believe that, and there's no um, you know, great timing for that. We when we talked with my husband about this, we were like, there's no good time to have a baby, but then you have to just decide, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but honestly, from my perspective, there is no good time anywhere, like whether you are in academia or not, in academia there is a whole other level of pressure, and the yeah, the timing, and uh, you know, the train is just gonna escape from the station, and you are not on it, and you are going to be left behind. So it's a whole other ballpark. But um yeah, it's it there is no good time anywhere. You can always get your health a little bit better, get your financial situation a little bit better, prepare mentally, prepare in other ways, and then you can be preparing forever. Yeah, so yeah, but it's good also that you have that you know self-awareness and those discussions early, and that you can kind of maybe put a deadline a little bit on it, like okay, we're going to prepare until that point, but then we're going to kind of let it go and surrender to the process, maybe. But definitely, oh I got so much so much to comment on from what you said so far. Um, I have my tumbler coming here already.
SPEAKER_00:You want to say hi, Duxie?
SPEAKER_02:I told you you think about it, but I have Patrick and other cats. I tell you, there was a good point. I was telling talking to you from the lab. You have your peace of mind.
SPEAKER_01:But I'm glad to see that on Saturday morning, you're not in the lab. Saturday mornings are sacred. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:You remember I told you it's non- uh non-negotiable, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That you are together at home in the morning. Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely that's also good for for the future, you know, for future planning that you kind of make your weekends at least and make some time for yourself sacred and non-negotiable. Yeah, so I also yeah, I really want these conversations to be normalized. I want this topic to not be taboo, and I want the voices to be heard, and yeah, they're becoming, I think, more and more like people are becoming more and more vocal about it and maybe more and more demanding of opportunities and not um seeing women any differently or thinking of them any differently as scientists, as potential hires, um, if they are in childbearing years, because I've also, yeah, I've also seen that, I've I've heard stories. And I I'm glad to see that this is becoming more open, but I feel like we could do more collectively. And I I also remember that when I started my PhD, I was like, no freaking way, like I'm not even going to think about having a family because this is just it's such a high-pressure environment, it's such a high pressure time, it's condensed. Or I used to think that it was condensed, but now looking back at it, I I see that you know, I started, let's say, six and a half years ago, left after one year, but there are still people from my cohort that are not finished.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it can last and here in Austria, it's not very limited, I guess. If your PI has money, uh, you can go on forever. So, again, coming back to our point about that you can be postponing forever, maybe at some point you're like, okay, the clock is ticking and I'm still not done, and my PI is still not letting me finish, then what do I do? So, all this all these considerations, all these conversations need to happen. And I'm glad also you brought up the PIs and what the PIs think because also heard stories there of people screaming at their PhD students and their postdocs, like, what are you thinking? Why now? This is so irresponsible. This is horrible because in the end, like nobody can be in your position private life, right? Absolutely, yeah, and nobody should have any say but you and your husband or you and your partner.
SPEAKER_02:So exactly. I mean, or like a PhD should be your only baby, like you have to get moved to your PhD thesis. I mean, these comments have been all the time around. I don't know. Uh I mean, from my perspective, I completely agree with you. Maybe there was never like such pressure directly, but indirectly, you you never think about having a family once you are having PhD. That's impossible. Like, really, it's just like so expected from you that you have to be all the time in the uh you know in the lab, and you have to dedicate most of your attention to your project. So, I mean, let alone having a private life, I think it's a really quote quite wow effect. But having babies while you're you're at PhD, I think that that's almost impossible. Like I also the examples I've seen so far, also with my colleagues during my PhD, after my PhD now, um it's pretty different. Nobody actually became a mom during PhD. Almost we had some exceptions. Yeah, that's true, which is honestly in the end, I think it was amazing because also our PIs were actually quite supportive uh about the whole family um thing, but it's not everywhere, it's not so common, absolutely not common, especially. I mean, uh, I'm so sorry to put our kind of conversation to that direction, but sometimes where your PI is a man, it's also quite hard. Like, because when when you have a woman PI, then I think she understands all the crazy things that you go through, like all the 5 a.m. wake up in the morning or not sleeping, you know, like because you just kind of have that sort of empathy directly. I had a conversation not with the PI, but somebody that is aspiring to be a PI, right? Like, and then uh I remember we were talking about like that there's so much problem in terms of like childcare, so it's really hard to leave your child and come to do your experiment, and then that and then the answer was just like, yeah, well, then just hire a nanny. What's the problem? And then with academic salary, where should I start? Exactly. I was like, where should I start? Like, and then you realize that it it doesn't come from a bad place, but it's just really like this complete deattachment from reality, like complete misunderstanding how things work. And then you're like, Wow, I guess just because nobody really told him about the whole thing that you go through as a mom or like as a new parent, and it's not just that easy, like you just cannot just hire a complete random stranger and give your three-month-old uh baby to them and be like, Okay, I went to my time point experiment, and my incubation is waiting for me. I mean, of course not, but I realized that there's so much this this disassociation from reality, especially from direction of men, because they just don't go through it, and then most of the time the caregivers are women, and then you hear all these stories. I mean, even the we had this beautiful story actually in Portugal. Uh, I mean, since both of us were in the same institute. Um, so our director back in the day, right, Jonathan, so he was very also very successful, and his wife is, in my humble opinion, she's way more successful. But yeah, anyway, so she's like the head of uh she was head of Mbo, I think now she's head of ERC, blah blah blah. And then there was this question where we had kind of conversations with both of them, but separately, and then we asked there was the same question like, what would you um suggest to young scientists? And the answer shook me, and they're like they're married, and then the answer was like uh from uh so from uh Leptin's side, she was like Maria said, she was like, Okay, you know, no matter what, you always have to prioritize your family. Family is very important, of course, people come in, and you know, like that's very just a grounded answer. I remember Jonathan answered, like, don't let family put you down. You have to move on with your life, career choices are the most important. I mean, you know, it's just that one example, but it's just so obvious. And in the end of the day, in my humble opinion, she's way more successful than he is, but you see this complete deattachment from reality and how the approaches are so much different, and I hope it is changing with time, but you see where your environment is, and both of them are great scientists, both of them had labs, both of them have great publications, but then you have this complete difference on approach about life and family, and then you're like, wow, okay, so where my freedom is, where I can also say it, right? Like that, you know, just don't care about the whole family thing. Yeah, like don't let it put because it sounded like that's like this obstacle that you have to overcome and don't let your family do put you down, type of thing. And you're like, wow, okay, like we have to deal with so many layers here, as women.
SPEAKER_01:But that's an amazing example because, like, as you say, she's somewhat you know, conventional, let's say, more successful, and she has kids, right? They have kids, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was she was a mom, and that didn't prevent her from achieving all these things, and most likely also, you know, given their generation, like they're older. Yeah, absolutely. It was probably also at the time where men didn't really have any parental leave and didn't go on any any leave at all, and probably everything was on a woman, and she still managed to get all this amazing accomplishments and build this amazing career. So it is possible, I guess, you know, not without its sacrifices, not without its obstacles, maybe not for everybody, but also maybe not everybody wants it, because you never know how having a baby will change you. Maybe it will kind of soften everything, and you will be like, you know what, screw career. I I am happy with that, with family. And yeah, it's very it's it's going to be very different, but it's it is a great example of what is possible, and that becoming a mom doesn't have to limit you, limit your ambition, limit your dreams, and can actually give you extra superpowers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh studies have shown actually moms, they are so much better at multitasking. Like everybody thinks that. I mean, there were already like I think cognition studies, so many, that actually women are becoming even more you know advanced just because our biology is changing and we have to be like on top of everything, and that actually helps in terms of career. I mean, just to I don't know, not to get into more like a political point of view, but for example, a lot of countries where it is so supported, um, it's completely different view. So, for example, now we have some colleagues that um came from Israel and they're PhD students, either PhD or postdoc, they both have kids. So, actually, for me, it was like, holy shit, like very shocking because I was like, oh my god, so like how that's possible. But then you realize that in a in a certain way, maybe in a way of like government as well, right? It's so appreciated to like give the freedom to have babies, but at the same time make sure that you have the opportunity to go come back to work, come back to science, come back to academia, and continue being a successful, you know, scientist as a woman. And we had these cases. I think we had a candidate proposal, if I'm not mistaken, that she had like five kids. And I was like, wow, and she was doing so she was having the kids while doing her PhD, and she was not very successful, and for me it was mind-blowing. I was like, wow, that's it really incredible. And this is, I think, a lot also talks about the systemic support that you have in terms of like um you know, government appreciation of like having babies in general. And I think in Israel this is very like a top priority, and you realize that as a scientist, you're still great because uh you know, sometimes when you hear too much that oh, you're gonna miss out, you're not gonna be the same again. It it you know, it gets to gets to you, it gets under your skin, and then you start believing in it yourself as well that oh no no no, if I have a baby, then that's it, like I cannot be able to be as sharp as I was before. As like, but actually, all these examples I have in front of me shows me otherwise. And this is, I guess, that's another thing that coming back to your first question that actually convinced me that this is possible is just the examples you have in front of you that are showing you, like, wow, actually, you can do so much more. And it's just like this kind of voices all the time. You just have to like you know, tone it down and be like, no, but look at others, and they're managing, they're great scientists, and they have babies, they leave early, uh, they come early, but it's possible. Yeah, back in the day, you kind of grew up in the scientific environment thinking that this is not, but also, I mean, just thinking about just to follow the the thought of the um kind of uh um government support. I mean, I'm really happy, for example, there is the paternity leave and like maternity leave, and that's actually very um supported. It really supports the whole kind of the whole year of taking care of the baby. But recently I was thinking about something. So maybe not in our case with me and my husband, but in a lot of cases. So when you go to maternity or paternity leave, um, you get I think 65-70% of your previous salary, like while you're in a maternity leave, something like this. So you get like a certain amount of money just to maintain your you know life while you're caregiver. And uh if you think about it, in most of the cases, uh even in Europe, women are still being paid less than men. So actually, if men take um paternity leave, they're going to still have like more money supported, right? So it's it's such a mess because in the end of the day, it kind of still you cannot take both because you're actually losing money in that case, right? Because you're not managing, and then you really have to find the best way how you balance like the whole financial burden on your family, and at the same time, systematically having problems just because by default you're earning less as a woman. So you're as a caregiver and you're you cannot really fully take advantage of it. And then as a as a couple, you're still not managing your financial burden as well. So, in the end of the day, men will just go to work because otherwise it's too much money lost if both of them are in the maternity or paternity leave. So men will still manage to catch up with their career and not have any gaps and not have any fear that they're missing out on something. And we, on the other hand, have to like stay and you know, um give care, but at the same time miss out on our own careers because men's salary is more, so if they actually go to paternity leave, they are going to lose a lot, right? You see what I mean? So it's I don't know, like I was just thinking maybe okay, in our case, particularly it's not the the situation, but even in a systematic point of view, you have these sacrifices that you have to make just because there is no support in that way, right? And plus, imagine your family is not around, which is most of the cases with scientists, because all of us are international. Abroads, yeah. So there's so much things to consider. Definitely, but yeah, I mean, I think it's just you just have to really bear in mind that you have to hear all the all the possible stories that are out there, because otherwise it's just becoming really tough. Because in a systemic point of view and like in environment, you just keep hearing like no no no. If you're a scientist, that's like think about it later, think about it when you're a PI, think about it, and then you have like I don't know, okay, you get to 40 plus, and that's when the first time you think about having a baby. And that's that's sad because I feel like you're also not managing, you know, like your health is also not the same. It's the same not the same if you're 25 or 30 when you're ball nighters, and then you're delaying it is such a big decision just because you know there's never a good time to have it.
SPEAKER_01:There is never a good time, and I think delaying it for for the outside voices, and like it's it's okay if this is what you definitely want, and if this is, you know, you're sure that this is your journey, you want to put in the work now, and then you want to step back and just be a parent. That's fine. But if you're delaying and postponing it just because of the all the outside influences that are attacking you left, right, and center, you know, and saying, No, you have to wait until things calm down, you have to wait until you submit the PhD or the thesis or submit that paper or submit that grant, and then you get there, and then that's that's sad. Because then you you arrive to that point, and you think you will be full of resentment. And as you said, the the health might be not there because also it is a stressful environment, so the stress kind of tends to accumulate, and you might need to spend more time trying, maybe, or more time preparing your body for pregnancy because you are just so under this tremendous stress and tremendous pressure. Yeah, um the energy is no longer the same. I had I had my son when I was 30, and I was thinking, 30, I'm still super young, it's still so good. I I mean, maybe at 25 would have been so much better because he just didn't sleep, and at 30, it's no longer as easy to pull an all-nighter as it was at 25. Even those five years made a difference, and yeah, the energy is level is going to be different. It might be, you know, slightly lower in most cases. So, yeah, it's it's a it's a lot of things to consider. It's the financial aspect is really difficult, obviously. Yeah, you you want to or you have to maybe if you're a breastfeeding mom, you have to go on maternity leave to be with your baby for a while, but then also you are not paying retirement contributions, maybe, so your retirement is not as up to date as as it could have been. Your pension is gonna be not changing as your husbands will be. So it's a lot of moving parts, a lot of things to consider, and um at the same time, if we spend all this time considering it, we're never going to decide. And if we want to be moms, there has to be a point where you're just gonna go and like I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I I completely agree with you. I think it's just uh it's it's important to be prepared. I always think that that's the best thing you can do is just to be prepared, but completely put it on on the side just because oh, maybe later, maybe later you realize that doesn't work like this. And then uh there's a really nice uh Russian saying that I like that you solve the problems by the by the moment of their arrival, you know, like and I think that's that's about life. I mean, I yesterday was so funny. Uh we were uh with friends, three girls, and we were like, okay, let's have our Christmas dinner together because we have to, you know, like have some our time, etc. And um we decided to kind of have like a rough um ideas about our resolutions for next year. So we were sharing what we can do a bit better, blah blah blah. And and then, of course, we were sharing about the resolutions, and then I was like, okay, so I want to finish the startup situation and then do the consulting a bit more, finish my experiment, have a baby, and then I'm just like, you know, writing this thing. And a friend of mine was like, first of all, I was like, I know you want all of this, but it's okay that you can take a break the moment you have a baby, and if you're that's your resolution for next year, there will be times where you have to take a break, and it's okay that you should look at your resolutions and not feel bad that oh my god, I didn't manage the other three points that I was actually also a bit like a lot passionate about, and you know that was so important for me to hear. And a friend of mine, she also doesn't have babies, but I I feel like we are just this whole thing that everybody expects something from you, and then this whole thing that you have to manage everything, you have to be the super mom, and you have to be like, and I was like, no, you can't be a messy mom, you can be you you can take your time. Maybe you will go for more than a year on maternity leave, and it's okay. But I feel like this this again, like going back to this whole pressure stuff, like trying to control everything, trying to make sure that go to go as minimum as possible because I will have this project, I have this experiment I have to do, and then you're like, no, this is a moment where I think the moment will come, and I mean, I'm projecting about it, but like there will be moments where you your priorities will change, and that's okay. And I think that's so important to tell future young moms out there that it's okay to control everything, that it's okay you're trying to be prepared as much as possible, but it will be a moment where it just gonna go to shit and it's fine.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I think for me it's like the hardest point to just let go of the control that this is gonna happen, even when when I'm thinking about like um, I don't know, like I love tidiness in the house, and I love about it, and then uh and then you see like in the social media, everybody like that, all these young moms they have like the perfect house, they have this beautiful big environment, blah blah blah, and then you're like, I have to do this because that's like how it's supposed to be. But then I started thinking, like, no, is this a real reality? No, do I need to show you my living room right now? So I believe you know, and that's exactly coming back to that point. We just have to be real about everything. We have to be we have to be prepared, but we have to be real about things. And I I feel like when I was I I remember, I don't know if you remember that message I I wrote to you that I'm so appreciating that you share the real life. Because when you talk about that with when I talk about maternity, like you know, being a mom with my mom, it's always like you will manage everything. And she had twins, and I don't know how she managed because it's still like with this covered with this whole notion of like you will manage everything, it's gonna be great, you but like I don't know, is it? I think she had uh I don't know, she was in the verge of mental breakdown most probably when she was doing it, but it was not allowed to talk about this, it was not allowed to show this. And once you feel like all these real conversations coming up, the reality, it just helps so much more, really. And people have to understand it that even in academia, when women are trying to kind of balance so many things, just be real about it. That you will miss conferences, I don't know, okay, you will miss experiments, but it's okay. The world is not gonna break down, and you're still very valuable scientists, you know. And I I miss these type of conversations in my surrounding as well. That you know, okay, if you didn't manage to do that one time point, uh but because you had to go to attend to your baby, it's okay, you should not feel guilty about it. And I feel like once we hear these conversations, once we hear the reality, that support, I think the decision of becoming a mom will be so much easier for us. And this is, I guess, what was missing. I mean, I feel like I I decided to become a mom, um despite not having all of that. But I really wish that for new, you know, new generation coming in and who did who will decide, objectively decide to have a baby and like uh create a family, they would have this type of support already there, you know? And they were like, Oh, there is a podcast about it, and actually talk about it, and that's oh my god, that's cool. Because there's um, I don't know, I personally don't find this, I don't see it.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think also, yeah, maybe maybe I since it wasn't really on my reader, I didn't look for these resources, but I was so much in this in this headspace of like, no, no, no, no, no. As you said, like there is no time, you have to finish, you have to like do the next step, the next step, the next step, and then maybe postpone it until you are settled. But you know what? In academia, there is like short-term contracts, PhD is a short term, postdoc is a short term, then maybe you're you know you're becoming a PI, but you still also have short-term until you are like, yeah, and so you you might be needing to move, and there is all this consideration, move countries again, move institutes, find another job, and there's all these things that yeah, you you are never really settled if you want to stay in academia, so never like one 100% or anywhere for that matter, you know, you can be fired from one day to the next. Maybe in some places it's more difficult than others, but still, and yeah, and also for us, for us, for moms, for women, it's like we the equality was that we are now working, we can earn our own money, but also I feel like we swung to the other side of the spectrum where we are expected to work, but also expected to be mums, but also expected to carry, and a lot of this is also like our internal things that we put on ourselves. We are expected to manage the household and still carry all the household work and still do like everything to a hundred percent. But you know, there's like the math ain't mathing. How can we put 100% of everything into everything? Yeah, so at some point, yes, some some things will have to give, and it is, as you said, it is okay. It is really difficult to surrender, it is really difficult to um let go of control if you have that in you, if you have that control freak streak. But also, you can never know how having a child is going to change you, how is it going to change your attitudes, your ambitions, your thinking about your work, your goals, your dreams. And sometimes it it is it might for for a lot of people it might soften them and really make them like, yeah, okay, that's it. You know, I'm I'm I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, actually, just on that point, um my previous supervisor, so while I was doing PhD, uh by the end of my PhD, she got into um maternity leave, so she was expecting a baby. And honestly, and I I think I told this to her as well at some point, after she was back for maternity leave, our relationships got so so so much better with her. And I think that's actually, and I think once she also told me, she was like, you know, Ansel, before I had no problem hiring people with um with kids, like that. She never had that issue. But she was like, But yeah, you know, deep inside I couldn't understand that. Oh, why you couldn't do that one more thing before going home, or you know, like very small things, not like in a blaming way, but just like thinking about it. Yeah, and then she told me, like, you know, the moment I had the baby, I had wow, I just like I got my eyes open. That now I realize that people, moms, go through so much things um while being in academia, so also like her understanding of other women completely changed as well. So you you feel much more empathetic um kind of relationship growing between you and your supervisor once like the whole maternity part happens, which is amazing because I think like at this point, like I don't know, it's a brain chemistry, what is it, but you changed a lot in a direction of like understanding all the situations, you know, like really being even more supportive if she was before. But I think like that helped by the end of my PhD to kind of survive the end, because that also I don't know, like I was really grateful that she got pregnant, really, because I think by the end of my PhD when everything was just getting too hard, that kind of really helped. So I was like, wow, that's like magic. Being a mom actually makes you so much more different, but in the best, best ways. So actually, it gives you so much more perspective, and yeah, I don't know. As a scientist, you also you know look up these things, and then you realize that you actually you're you're so much more empathetic, you are way more multitasking, you're understanding things much faster. And of course, there will be points where you're super tired and you cannot do anything, but I also I really want people to know that you know it actually it's improvement rather than rather than just a setback, you know. Yeah, that's so important because during my PhD, I was always thinking it's a setback, and it's not it's not gonna give me any value, it's not an improvement, and I'm not planning anything like that. And but now thinking further, I'm like, wow, that's so much important. Like it's like a freaking miracle, even as a scientist, you treat it as a miracle, you know, and it's great and it's amazing, and you should do it, and you should not freak out about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, you know, like of course, as a human, let's put it this way, I think I had a I still have them. I have a lot of fears, because like all this responsibility of for another human being, you know, and responsibility of um bringing that person to life to this world, and then you think about economy, ecology, everything. Like it's amazing, like your brain just thinks about a thousand things that that tiny human being is going to grow up into, right? Yeah, and then you think about all your childhood traumas, like you're so afraid that you're going to, and it's another Pandora box you wanna you don't want to open. But then you also think like, oh my god, what if I do something and then it's another trauma for my kid? You know, there's so much to think about.
SPEAKER_01:I feel you very much, and I feel like this is our our generation, like our millennial, it's millennial things, really, because we and also like we have a similar cultural background, so I think I can also relate relate to that. I'm passionate about it, so it's just my speech is escaping from me.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:No, so definitely I feel also that that's part as well, where I I had a happy childhood. I know that my parents did everything they could with the resources and the knowledge that they had, but you know, there was still some shit that still worked through, and it's a work in progress. And I'm so scared of giving this to my son that I'm kind of swinging also to the other end, to the other extreme, and maybe being a little bit too free and like hippy-dippy mom, and it's like, yeah, you can do whatever. Sometimes, of course, not to the extreme, but um, yeah, there it's it's difficult because also we put all that pressure on ourselves that we have to solve all our own traumas and fix everything within us and then not give any traumas to our kids, which is impossible. There is still going to be something that they're going to talk to their therapists about. Oh, my mom was so kind, that was too much.
SPEAKER_00:I was allowed everything, that'd be the person. God damn it, how could she do this to me? Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so there is, yeah, there is definitely all of that and all of those considerations, but also coming back to the previous point of the like improvement, um, how motherhood changes you for the better, or parenthood changes you for the better, for that matter. I also can can attest to that. Like, I'm obviously I'm not in academia, but I'm uh self-employed, so there is a lot of kind of parallels where you have to be like very self-driven, self-motivated, and um, if you don't do the work, nobody does the work, and you cannot kind of just ghost spy with somebody else doing most of the work. So I feel like motherhood, first of all, gave me a lot of like time back because I used to spend much more time procrastinating because I would be anxious or because my perfectionism would take over, because my imposter syndrome would start talking and be like, why? You know, you cannot talk about this. And now I'm like, no, that those voices don't have any any space. I don't have time for this, I have to just do it. So there is a lot more of that, of like doing and trying and figuring things out as I go, and again, solving the problems as they come. Um, instead of instead of yeah, worrying about it and kind of like I'm going to think and I'm going to think again and I'm going to prepare for months and months and like I'm just gonna do this. So it is it is a superpower for sure, and also it gives you a completely different motivation because I mean, for example, like I can see you that you you are going to continue doing all these things, you're going to continue being so like multi-passionate and multi-hyphen at you know, a startup and this and that. Because once you have a child, you will be like, okay, I have this life that I'm responsible for. And apart from just covering, you know, like the basic needs, so needing money, I also need to show them that you know, all of this is possible and you can do it and you can be who you want to be, and you can create your you know, world, your environment, how you imagine it. And like this is this is it for me. I I know after having my son, I know that I want to make you know my work work because I want to show him that if you are in a bad environment, you can leave and you can create your environment that is nurturing for you in terms of employment, in terms of work, in terms of like you can create a work that is fulfilling for you. You you don't have to like suffer in a in a job just because you know you have to stay in a job once you are in it, yeah. As you know, maybe our parents would say, or like our parents' generation. So there is a completely different level of motivation because now you want to be an example, you want to be a role model for also for that human being. But yeah, definitely. I mean, sometimes I look at him and I'm like, who gave me permission to take care? Like, how like where are the adults?
SPEAKER_02:Where are they to like decide for me? Because who left me with this baby? No, I know. I mean, it's it's really similar to um when my my when my sister uh uh had her first child, it was also like for me, it was so hard to comprehend it. That I was like, did you take the neighbor's baby? Like this, you know, like it was very weird to me. And but again, going back to all these examples, actually, you see that in in my case with my sister, she has three kids, and she's managing everything, she's managing to travel, she's managing to manage her all her businesses, all her ladies' clubs, and all of these things. And you realize, like, wow, okay, what I was worried about. Like, you know, you can do it, and it's just a matter of, I mean, no offense to our mom's generations, but I feel like we grew up too much with this notion that I sacrificed my life to raise you. That that one sentence has been always with me. Almost your existence, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, I guess at some point it also becomes a little bit of a leverage because you just want to things to go your way, so you just need it all the time. Uh, but it happened to in my family. I mean, I I we I will be very honest about this. So my mom um stopped working once she she had my sister and my brother, they were twins, and then at some point, seven years later, they had me. Again, actually, I have to tell you this story. You know how they planned to have me? Did I tell you the story? No, okay, that's that's a very great story to tell. So people don't feel bad to have babies for worse reasons. So Soviet Union, 90s, and then my mom and dad, they were scientists, by the way. Uh, they're they were working in the scientific institute, and then um the government, Soviet Union, would give them like free apartments as uh scientific, you know, uh stuff. And then uh the govern, like there was this office where they told them, like, okay, so since you have two kids, and it's crazy because they have twins, you know, one boy, one girl, perfect match. Like, why would on earth you have third one, right? And then they're like, but if you have the third kid, we will give you three-room apartment instead of two-room apartment. So if you manage everybody got the work, so you're looking at the three-room apartment reason right here, and that's how they had me because third kit, three-room apartment, bigger space. Yeah, I loved our apartment, love it, grew up there. I honestly enjoyed it a lot, but you know, sometimes the reasons can be also insane, and this was one of the cases, and they had me, and uh, my mom also stayed at home to raise me, um, which I am endlessly grateful. But then you end up in the environment where it's always like you keep hearing that women gave up their careers to raise you, and it's not only in Armenia. I think here I also heard a lot of um stories about it, and this happens also here back in that back in that time. So just because that was the only notion that you see saw all your life, that that's like you have to that's my I don't know if you can hear it. Okay, it's like the the toddlers, yeah. Yeah, so with this notion that you know, if you are a mom, then you have to sacrifice everything, raise the babies because that's like your you know life goal. But then when my sister had her babies and then I I started seeing like all this example of you actually can do it, that actually one was one of the points where it like really started pushing me that no, I actually can do it. And even if I'm in academia, then I just have to find the best way how to deal with this and find the best supportive environment for that. And this is also something that I realize a lot of women do when they are uh going for postdoc, for example, they actually look for PI or an environment that's you know, basically a lab where there are people who have babies, let's put it this way, because that's a red flag. If you go to a lab where everybody's you know, God forbid, single, even not even like having families, but not even having babies. I think it's like it can be a little bit of a red flag because then you feel like okay, there is such a big notion that you you cannot do this.
SPEAKER_01:There are some selection process going on, right? Yes, maybe people are a bit like, no, I'm not going to go here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this definitely happens. I know stories, um, at least in Armenia, I know stories where a lot of women hide the fact that they just got married when they are applying for a job, because there is a big, big, big selection of that if she just got married, there is a big chance she's gonna have a baby soon. So we actually will not hire her because of this. And I mean, I've also heard a lot of horror stories in academia about this that this actually happens. Luckily, in my lab, we actually have a lot we have a lot of people that have families and babies, and yeah, and it works out. We have an amazing TA that she has three kids, and throughout three maternity leaves, she was in the lab, in and out, and it still worked, and it still worked very well. And I mean, really, but again, this is rather an exception than you know, like kind of a normality, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01:I think you know, when you are in this in this situation, like you're a parent, and there there are moments when you are feeling like I don't know how I'm going to get up tomorrow and do it all over again, and then you just get up and then you do it, you know, and in the same way, in a like bigger perspective, like you are in this situation and you are going to find a way. You are going to figure out how like build your support, find people, find um improve your communication maybe with your partner, with your husband, so that you guys can make it work. So you're just going to figure it out. I mean, it's not, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be preparing and you shouldn't be having the conversations early, but eventually I do think that yeah, you are going to um find ways to make everything work. As you said, like three kids and your um colleague found a way to to be in the lab in and out. That's that's very um impressive. The environment is not very conducive, right? But how can we what can we do on like an individual level or maybe organizational level? What do you think we can do to make academia stop dictating this and kind of make it start designing an environment, start designing also lives for ourselves that are that we want to have within academic context, within academia?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I mean how I would see the perfect environment where it will you know allow me to think of having babies, like if I'm thinking from this perspective, it's super important to be vocal about this because simply people either don't know and they're not coming from a bad place, but really I was shocked of the comments sometimes. I would hear we had this situation where we had like this equal opportunities workshop where uh we had a guy, postdoc from China, who would just uh was super annoyed that we're spending time on this, and then I was like, why we even do this? Like, I I don't understand what's the point, and and then you realize like you cannot really blame them because it's just like they never really went through stuff like this, and they don't know. And I I feel like it's super important to be vocal about this, vocal about your experiences, how tough it can get on you, but also find like also show that no matter what, it's possible. I think that's so important. And these type of stories, and again, the fact that we're doing this podcast today and you're doing your podcast, that actually helps a lot. I mean, you are looking at the person that your podcasts help a lot. I mean, no praising intended, it's it's really like this. No, please praise me. Yeah, you changed my life, and I'm not joking because I really feel the moment I saw your example of now, I mean, not only like the fact that you left because it was bad, you had all the guts to do that, and you show that it's possible. That was actually gave me so much clarity in mind because when I was going through my PhD, I was like, there's no way I can do that. That's nobody does it, you know. And then you saw that there are people who do it, and it's the greatest decision of them all, and then you're like, Okay, I have a backup plan in a workspace. Fuck this, I'm just gonna leave, you know, and that take took so much pressure off of me. And I think that was because I also saw your example, and that's so important, and you were always vocal about this, and that's super super. I mean, uh, recently I was uh on your Instagram where I saw like the whole journey you were telling about uh Christmas time when you the year when you decided to quit and all these health issues that you were facing, and then I was like, Oh my god, I had similar, like I had moments where I couldn't eat anything, and I had like like I had this stress hives that was just like all over my body because I was just too stressed and I was having like an allergic reaction to stress, and like you think that okay, but that's nobody talks about it, and that's important. And that first thing about academia, the second thing that you can be self-employed, you you are uh starting your own business, you're starting all this thing, but at the same time, you have the time for creating your family, and that also was such a great example for me. I was like, you know what? Yeah, there is no perfect timing whatsoever. You you can do it, and you can be a great mom, you can still have an amazing business, have your great podcast that helps people, and then still again, not praising, giving good advice. Thank you. Yeah, really, and I think these types of initiatives are so so important, and because uh we can have an equal opportunities workshop where people share their experiences, but it maybe will give some perspective, but then one hour later people will be like, Okay, it's time to go, and that's it. And that's that's not going to have a lasting effect, unfortunately. So you need to hear it all the time, yeah, yeah, really, because the whole thing of hearing all the time is mostly like you have to work hard, you have to stay, you cannot take a break, that's not impossible. The moment you take a break, your career is over. All these years that you invested is gonna be over. No, there will be always a great scientific hypothesis to explore. It's fine if this one didn't work out, or you didn't have time for this one, you know. So always be vocal about it, be true. I think that's like very helpful. Even in the environment of academia, people just have to talk about how it is to balance it, and we need uh a lot of success stories to see that it's possible, but also the reality behind it, not because like I have the CEO mindset, I wake up at five, I do half an hour meditation. No, just be real, yes. You wake up because you didn't sleep properly, because your baby was awake the whole night. And I love your stories about this because that's so true. That yeah, and I finally was productive, and then my baby got sick, so I just have to figure out how to deal with this. And these are the real life stories, and these things happen, and this should be also possible to hear when you're in academia. Yeah, yeah. Uh, fortunately, I didn't do this one time point because my baby was sick and I had to go to pick it, pick him or her up, or I don't know, the kindergarten uh got closed today because there are not enough stuff, and by the way, this is a huge problem in Germany.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, here as well, yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_02:It's just like oh, and then the whole kindergarten is closed because all the caretakers are sick, and then you have to figure out what to do. Yeah, but you have to talk about this, it's so important. It was very important for me until I got all this you know information kind of getting into my brain. I also thought it's impossible. Fortunately, like there are way more voices telling you that it's impossible and you have to focus on your career and you cannot have it both, or you just find finally like this tiny haven of like a piece of information that actually gives you the reality, and yeah, even your family cannot give you that clarity, even your it's just not possible because they're also very biased, they want grandchildren, so it's impossible to trust them.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely, also they they just don't remember. Like, according to my parents, I was the best sleeper. I I I just taught everything to myself by myself, like to go to potty, to do everything. They didn't have to put any effort, and now, like, why is this so hard for you? Well, maybe because I have a child, I don't have an imaginary child, I have a child. I experience a lot of this thing with my child, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it's I feel like what you said about vulnerability and and being like honest and being truthful about your experience, it's also like it's hard. I think we have the cultural aspect that we talked about, that for us vulnerability is not easy, but also in academia in general, like it's another layer. It is not easy, like you now start talking about like this failure CVs where people are open about how much they didn't get, how much positions or the positions, the grants, the whatever that they didn't get in order to build the successful careers that they have. And they're much more open about it now. But also, like this wasn't the case even a few years back. Everybody was kind of like, no, I. I got this, but like nobody talks about what they didn't achieve or what they um the the journals that they submitted to and got rejected from or whatever. And it's it's also the kind of academia that conditions us to only show the good side, to only show the experiments that worked, and all the repeats that didn't work, we are throwing them away.
SPEAKER_03:All the sides that didn't work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's the same way with with parenthood, you kind of want the glossy picture of yeah, a clean house, everybody is managing everything, nobody wants to see like the hair falling out or the the bags under my eyes.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm gonna be honest about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think that you actually help people, you help people more than actually like just you know masking it as if you are like this uh kind of uh on the verge of like being robotic, you know, like because I don't I don't think that's also human.
SPEAKER_01:Like I don't see that happening, that you 100% of time have everything in place and everything is just like there has to be something going on, really, because life is all about these chaotic situations and people just have to be yeah, maybe you maybe you have a lot of help, but then also you know, like if everything is in place, maybe you have a cleaner, maybe you have a nanny, maybe you have a lot of family help, but then also be honest about that because otherwise people see this kind of things on social media and they're like, Oh my god, I am a mess, I'm a failure. Yeah, and I mean we all feel like that from time to time, and it's fine, but it's it's not yeah, it's not helping anybody to to just show the the beautiful picture, the like highlight real of your experience bit in academia, in motherhood, in motherhood in academia.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's it's absolutely important. I just cannot emphasize the importance so much, but even like in in your call, like in the work environment, for example, in academia, I think also it's important that women also are super supportive of each other and like they're really honest with each other, and just because sometimes you know, like you just have this feeling like you're two postdocs and you're like working to get somewhere to publish it, and then it can get competitive. But I think it's like the moment you're overstepping to the point where you're a mom and you're taking care of more than just yourself and your project, I think it's so important like women also supporting each other in this environment because the once you're kind of a united front, you actually can change a lot in the environment. Because yeah, sometimes people are just like, no, no, no, no, no. I will just do I will just do my project, I will I don't care about what's going on with others' lives, you know, like yeah, and I think there should be like kind of consolidation of this, like consolidation of like women power in a way that we start pushing all these conversations to happen because yeah, it's insane that to me that in the 21st century you have people who think like it's just as simple as hiring a nanny. Like, what's your problem? Like, okay, you got a baby, now get out and work and do your project, and then you're like, Where we failed?
SPEAKER_01:What happened? I I heard the story, I don't remember who I think maybe it was in the PhD program, like the course that we had at the beginning of the PhD program, where somebody told about a woman who was um I think she was helping with like scientific illustrations or or creating nice, nice graphs or whatever for publications for it to be very clear, very beautiful, and how she at some point replied to an email um about like hey, I have this, like, can we have a call and and talk about like how we can make it into a illustration, whatever, let it be illustration. And she said, Yeah, I'm in labor, but I will call you tomorrow. And I I remember like everybody laughed at this story, and now looking back at me, this is not funny, no, no, no, and this is and this is not really inspiring. No, this is scary, yeah. And I I feel like it's maybe a very like US inspired, you US induced thinking because there you don't get a maternity leave, and everybody kind of almost brags about how quickly they go back to work. Yeah, but it is terrifying for women, mental health, for physical health and recovery, for everything. And yeah, so it is it is not funny, and it's it's really sad if we if we think this way that yeah, we have to just kind of bounce back both physically in terms of how we look or in terms of our health, but also in terms of work, bounce back to work right away and not have like this is a monumental change in your life. How can you do that?
SPEAKER_02:Go back to lab, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then I also heard stories from from my husband about again PMIs in Portugal, and I think it's this is not specific to Portugal, but everywhere, of how they were not how they were talking to women in their lab and being like, Okay, your your child is sick, like not a baby already, an older child, your child is sick, so what? What does it mean? Why do you have to leave leave work now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You I mean, okay, maybe you are not a father, maybe you're not a parent, but you're a human being. What does not compute in your brain? What is happening?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think that that's so important that people call off this type of behaviors. I mean, even like that example with the labor situation, like that's not funny, none at all. And I think women, I mean, sometimes I feel like women trying so hard to prove that they're superpower that also backfires at some point, you know. Like, so we have to find the I don't know how, I also don't know how, but we have to find the balance in a way that we don't overdo it because when which is fine, be the super mom, it's not about that, but also don't normalize the fact that you're in labor and you're gonna answer to emails because then it becomes this complete extreme toxic normalization that oh, if she answered me while she was in labor, what is your problem that you have to go back home because your kid is sick, you know? And then it just like sets up this completely unrealistic thing. And I feel like there's such a like a double double sort, like a double-edged sword, right? Like it's I don't know. I mean, I don't have per se the solution, but I think the only solution would be just like be supportive. Okay, if that's your choice, that you're in labor, that's really you because you're just such a work-driven good for you. I mean, awesome. Thank you for showing that standard. But I also have all the right to like close my laptop two months before my preg like my due date and never answer you back. Yeah, should be fine too. Yeah, because otherwise, like I'm sorry, like I mean, and I know, like, as an extremely um, you know, perfectionist people that we are, I think like maybe a few years back we would hear this story and be like, wow, so inspiring. Like she has everything under control. What am I even complaining about? You know, like, and this can happen and this will happen because people just don't know better, and then they hear all these stories that are actually kind of in a way leveraged against you, if you think about it, and setting yourself up for kind of yeah, this unrealistic standards and for failure, because then you cannot live up to this huge answering emails in labor.
SPEAKER_01:That's crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think that c comes back to also like in in cultural background, you have so much of these toxic things where it's just like you are you're feeling bad. Well, these people should feel bad that they are doing this, this so like you completely um how to say, like put down my struggles just because you have some really unrealistic bar that someone set at some point in their life, and then you have nothing but just too much to it, and that's like horrible, especially and it comes back to all the family planning as well, right? Like, um, there are either very extreme bars that are set that also backfiring you as a woman, or there's just nothing, and then you have to navigate this whole environment yourself, like to have in the dark, yeah. Yeah, like what should I do? Yeah, like yeah, no, I we need more realistic, realistic examples, conversations about it, yeah. Yeah, and I wouldn't have no problem if like that's her choice of answering her phone. I mean, my sister was doing the same, but I know that it was her choice because she's a person like that. She just likes to be always in contact, in touch with all her and them things like this. I don't know how I will be, but I know that if I choose not to be present, that's good enough too. That's valid enough to. And I want these people to know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, it's as I said, you you can never predict how it's going to be for you, how this change is going to affect you, and how it's going to change your attitude, your desires, your dreams. You know, maybe maybe the ambitions are going to change completely, and what mattered before is not going to matter as much or at all anymore. And that's also fine. You know, you cannot, it is a change in the brain, it is a biochemical change, it's a change in your lifestyle, and it is so vast, so dramatic that a again, you cannot predict it, and b it's okay, you know, like you cannot grasp onto the old. That's what I what I told you when you had this mini-vental breakdown. Like, you cannot grasp to the old version of you because that's it, she's gone. You are going to be a new Amasia, I'm a new Xenia. I I maybe sometimes miss or grieve the old version of me, but also I don't because she was very different and not, I don't necessarily like a lot of aspects of her. She was much more people-pleasing, she was much more procrastinating, she was much more angry. I mean, I'm still anxious, but anxious about kind of wrong things. And yeah, perfectionist, and this was preventing her from following her passions and ambitions and dreams. And I it is a work in progress. I still get all these feelings. It's not like I just magically, you know, switch was flipped, and that's it. I don't think about these things anymore. But I am motivated much differently, and you know, I'm I am a different person, and it there is a there is a period of grieving, but also it's there is beauty in it. It's like you know, you you were a caterpillar and you become a butterfly, in a sense.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes sometimes it feels like you were a butterfly, you were a beautiful butterfly, now you're a caterpillar. You're just kind of like crawling through life slowly.
SPEAKER_01:But no, I think it's it's the other way around. You you are unraveling and kind of opening up in a completely different way, in a beautiful way.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, I really hope so. I mean, you know, my fears about it, and I think like on top of all the other rational, irrational fears of traumas, ecology, environment, world, like all of these things. Um, I I think it's very like a selfish point when I was thinking about it, but yeah, I was like uh so scared, and I'm still still there is part of me that is still very scared of like letting go of who I was before becoming a mom. But I think the other day I was thinking about it a lot, and that's partially because again, you see examples where women were different things, and then they became a mom, and the only thing that they are associated is just like I'm a mom, but then I was like, I I just don't want to be maybe it sounds really bad, but like just a mom, you know, like I wanna stay my own person, and this is what scares me that at some point I would just be, even if in that saying of just a mom, there's so much things included, and I understand it and I I I get it, but you know, when you see like all these very cool women that they could have been so many things, and then when you ask them, like, so tell me about yourself, and the the only thing they said, like, oh, I'm mom of two. Okay, it tells me a lot, uh, of course, but what else? What were your hobbies? What were your interests? What you know, like who are you before and after being a mom? And this is what scared me the most, like, about actually planning a family. The fact that is it going to happen to me as well, that I am just a mom, but I was so much more before that. But I also understand that that just a mom embraces when you open it up, it's a whole world that I still don't know of, and it's still like a whole world, and nobody really showed me that whole world, so I cannot really have any understanding what is waiting for me. And that's so important to kind of talk about this. And I love when I talk about it with you because you are really kind of in a way opening up these braces, what it means to be just a mom, and it's a huge world in it, and I now understand that you are not exchanging your one personality to another, but you're just kind of you know, smoothly transitioning, and just being just a mom is actually a much bigger thing rather than I was imagining it to be because I was coming from a very selfish point of view, you know, like my aspirations, my dreams, my hobbies, my time, you know.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, I you know, also in a spirit of like radical honesty and vulnerability, I want to reassure you that I was also like I always wanted to have kids. I as a child, I was already very confident. I I didn't know who I want to be, like when you when parents or you know, uncles and aunts ask you who you want to be when you grow up, and you're like, uh so for me, I I didn't really know I had some answers. There was a period that I wanted to be an archaeologist, you know, I loved Indiana Jones movies. And I was like, yeah, I'm an archaeologist, but I was not entirely confident about any of those answers, but I knew that I wanted to be a mom. And then once I became a mom, I knew that I don't want to be just mom, quote unquote. You know, I realized that I am not going to be fulfilled by only doing motherhood stuff and kind of stay-at-home mom things, so I'm grateful to have my own self-employment, my business, so that I can combine the two and I can do one and the other kind of at the same time, and maybe you know, my business is filling the cracks in between the motherhood tasks, and uh it is how it's happening now, but it is also fine, and that doesn't mean that I want to ship my kid away and kind of let motherhood and let all my other responsibilities pass me by and just not participate in it at all. I I just know that like there is a combination of kind of mom Xenia and uh yoga teacher, coach, yeah, sportive person, Xenia, that they they live together, right? It's not just one or the other. And your I think passions and ambitions and everything is going to also kind of mold and change shape and adapt to the change that is going to happen in you once you become a mom, and I think it's all going to work out. But one let's let's say one last question because we talked about that. You are very multi-passionate, right? You have so many things that you're doing, and we talked about it last time that you have so much on your plate, you're juggling many roles, and you are I think excited and passionate about all of those, and it's it's now weird to imagine that you know some balls will have to drop. Do you feel like since you are so multi-hypernate, it's it it is even more pervasive, this messaging that oh, having children will limit you and will clip your wings and you will not be able to like it's even more there, present for you. Do you hear it often?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I would say since we're coming with a very uh you know like honest point of view, I never wanted kids. What crazy, but yeah, I never saw myself as a mom, to be completely honest. Never, never, never. I mean, there was a moment, very brief moment, that I could, it's very weird, but I could imagine myself as a single mom. Very weird. I don't know why, but I had that point in my life where I was like, you know what? I just want to be a single mom. That would be do you know, like have my stuff and have my baby just for the sake of procreation and passing my genes. And I really had that very weird period, and I think it was during my PhD, by the way, where I could envision myself like having my lab and walking there with my daughter. Like I had that dream, like I don't know why. Don't ask me. There's probably multi-layer trauma behind it.
SPEAKER_00:I have no clue, but it was Patrick doesn't take it personally.
SPEAKER_02:I I told him, I told him. I think we really honestly talk about it because so I never imagined myself being a mom, and for a very long time I was very, I wouldn't say like super strong, but I was really like inclining to more like the child-free direction, really quite sometime. I think, especially during PhD and postdoc and everything. Of course, um, I met Patrick, and I think that changed a lot because then you realize that you can have a partner that you are willing to take that step, and I think that helps a lot. And I had my own fears. My um my one of my biggest fears obviously not to be a good mom. I don't know what it means, but I'm afraid of that. Uh it's it's a very weird thing, right? Um, and and I don't like kids. I don't really bet with kids. I mean, I'm all the no-I don't believe you.
SPEAKER_01:I saw you with your niece and nephew, I don't believe you.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe two sort of I don't know, maybe I I extremitize it. I maybe it's not really true, but I don't know. I always thought that kids don't like me.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-huh. I always believe you.
SPEAKER_02:I always think my niece and nephew hate me because I'm just like very straight with them, and my sister is very like this hippie mom, and I'm more like I'm like my, you know, like a post-Soviet mother, and that's what also kind of scared me because I was like, Oh my god, will I bring that same traumas to my kid what I had because of this strictness and things like this? Um, but yeah, I mean, I always thought that kids don't like me and I don't like kids. So slowly, um, when you have a good partner, and on a literally on a daily basis, Patrick would tell me, No, you will be a good mom. Don't worry, we will figure it out. If it wasn't for that, I I think I would still have the same opinions about being child free, to be completely honest. Because of all that pressure of in my head of society, of how you had like being a perfect mother and like all of these things, that scares the shit out of me, really. Like, and I think just because on a daily basis uh Patrick could tell me that no, it will be fine, we will figure it out together, you're not alone in that. It was really hard. I remember we we got married, and um, of course, you plan your years, what you're planning to do, and we were still in Yena, and there was a moment where we obviously sit down and we had to talk about like future kids and are we planning or not planning all of this. I mean, I felt like this massive pressure because Patrick wants kids, like that's like no, like comes with the package, like he he wants to be a father, you know. And I was super scared that I don't know if I will be able to be on the same page with him, and that was also a conversation we had before getting married, and I was very honest that maybe at some point I will change my mind, but I don't think this is the moment yet, and I'm not ready for sure. And and I only got ready because I think throughout three years I've been hearing it's gonna be okay. It took me a very long time to accept the fact that it's going to be okay. Oh my god, I'm getting emotional. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I me too. Okay, so it's all good.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know why it is like that and where it comes from. And I think it's like the life in general, I think it's like childhood, how you grow up, how you reach to a point, you know, and you want, and even like doing so many things right now, it's I think partially it's because I want to make sure that I'm fully ready, financially, non-financially, household, everything that I can give everything to that kid. But now, um, for me, one thing that is especially talking to you, seeing other people. Now I finally realize that being a mom is actually like pro-level, it's not downshifting, it's actually being so much more. And that I really I cannot wait to that moment that I've been hearing a lot uh from people that you will experience the unconditional and true love the moment you have your child, and I'm so looking forward to that. And I again no pressure, maybe it will not be in the beautiful movie like moment where you just look at your child, and then like the you know, there's a sound in the background, and like you forget the all the labor pain and all of that. I I mean I'm not putting your pressure on that, but I am really looking forward to it. And I think it took me quite some time to get to this, and this was also because of the examples, because of my partner telling me that everything is gonna be fine, because you just simply don't have people telling you that, and you just have to either create that environment, and this is why I think it's so important to talk about it, because if there's somebody who listens to us and who thinks um you know, having kids is just a very, very scary thing, and they don't know if they can do it, it's just a matter of time, just don't pressure yourself, just take that time, and I think you will be ready for it eventually, if you want to, obviously.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's just highlighting again, yeah, how how much pressure we internalize and then kind of start putting on ourselves and how much shit we are telling ourselves that we have to do this and that, and we have to do it perfectly and in a particular way, and otherwise it doesn't count. And and I'm glad again our traditional shout out to Patrick.
SPEAKER_02:We don't realize like all our episodes are ending up like Patrick, good job.
SPEAKER_01:Patrick, good job. Yeah, I'm so glad that he was able to to like be this rock for you and and um tell you these things because it's so important that yeah, maybe you don't believe it yourself yet, but with enough repetition from his side, I think eventually you're going to believe him, and eventually also you're going to have proof that he was right all along.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, no, I hypothesis, but yeah, no doubt. That's the plan. That's the plan.
SPEAKER_00:We're a little bit emotional after all this.
SPEAKER_02:Like by the end, we just like cannot survive it. No, no, I think it's yeah. I mean, uh, I will really repeat myself, but I think the good partner, good, the good environment, all these things are very important because um you can be also like super, you know, convinced child-free person, and no judgment there, completely normal. I mean, I also very long time I thought like having a kid is actually very selfish reason to have a kid. For a very long time, I was thinking that actually not having a kid is not being selfish, it's being just realistic. So we always had this conversation with my mom where she was like, no, actually, living just for yourself for yourself, basically, just for your life, is basically that's the biggest selfish thing. And I believe that just having a baby for the sake of having a baby, that in the future they will give you a cut glass of water if you need it, blah blah blah. That was the biggest selfish uh understanding for me. But with time, I realized that it can be neither. So you actually want to have someone give all your love, give all everything you have to that someone, and make sure that they are going to be a great like great person, yeah. And and that person is not just coming into the life because they have this higher you know definition of life that they have to take care of, you know. But I I think it's just natural, and we are biologists, and we believe in nature was the most clever thing, the way how it designed us, and I think we should not really fully go against it. If not, totally fine. But I think uh it's only natural and it only makes sense because that's how what we are as species, right?
SPEAKER_01:We have to keep continuing, yeah, and also it is, I think, from my perspective, it is a really beautiful thing to have a continuation of like let's say me and my husband's love and see him in our sun, and um it is bittersweet in a way, but it's also like it's really beautiful. So I um I'm looking at it with a lot of happiness and a lot of like, okay, yeah, this was this was the right decision. So I'm I'm sure that you are going to see also Mini Patrick's, and you're going to be like, Yeah, yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_02:It's so important to talk to you, it just gives me so much more like peace of mind happiness. No, it's important, and I think people really have to, women, you got this. Whoever you are, you got this. It's gonna be tough, but it's gonna be possible, and everything's gonna be fine. Yeah, I think that's what you have to just.
SPEAKER_01:I I think this this series will have to continue, like this series will have to continue because during pregnancy, yeah, but also like different different people talking about their experience of motherhood in academia because really, like, this is again talking to you all again highlighted it for me how much stuff we are like conditioning we're exposed to, and how honesty with this vulnerability and these conversations are important. So, I kind of yeah, I I'm fired up. I want to bring more of this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let's do it. Really, that's so important. Xenia, whatever you do, it's it's it's really helpful. I can tell you, I'm really like an example of how much it helped me also to get my mind around it as a because you know, you were so realistic when we were talking about this whole leaving your old self, becoming a new one. You're realistic, like you didn't sugarcoat, you're like, Yeah, it's gonna change, you're not gonna be the same anymore, but it's not necessarily down great, it's actually an evolution in a lot of ways. So it's important to hear because not a lot of people out there telling you this. Because for them, it's just like unconditioned, it's gonna be amazing, you're gonna glow, you're gonna look glow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look at me, I'm glowing.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you are. Uh if if I'm glowing, that's sweating. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:It's hormonal sweat.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm kidding. No, that there is it's it's challenging, but like all challenges have something, some silver linings in them and some beauty in them. So it is going to be both. It's going to be really difficult and also really amazing, I think. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Looking forward.
SPEAKER_01:Me too. I am looking forward to meeting little babies from your side.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, then I think we have you have your tasks, your job outlined for you.
SPEAKER_03:Patrick.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, my dear, thank you so much for being so open, so honest, radically honest with me. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate that you yeah, you uh went with it with me and uh Um answered all my intrusive questions.
SPEAKER_02:More than happy. I think if we will be able to at least help someone or just like give a perspective, I think we already succeeded in so many ways. I I really truly believe it.
SPEAKER_01:Just by now some resources, but again, looking back at myself, it was so difficult to imagine any other perspective. But no, no, no, no kids at all until I'm done. And when is this when it's done? When it's done. Yeah. So it's um it's very helpful to kind of look at this from different angles, different perspectives, hear different stories. So here's two more stories about that. And again, thank you so much for being here with me. I appreciate you for inviting again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was amazing. I hope it's gonna be more and more episodes already as we talk about it, not only just with me, but with other people, other examples, and maybe even like different stages of already life.
SPEAKER_01:So oh, yeah, I have I have something in mind.
SPEAKER_02:So hopefully, I'm looking forward.
SPEAKER_01:All right, then let's wrap it up for today. And thank you to our listeners. Don't forget to share it with maybe expectant moms or future moms that you know in academia or otherwise, maybe it's going to help somebody. Don't forget to like and follow Moms Mats manuscripts for more coffee fueled. I still have my one last cold sip of coffee for more coffee fueled conversations and see you next time. Bye. Bye.
