S3E14 - Speak up: A conversation on finding your voice and confidence with Emma Gaskin

Public speaking, whether in a conference room or on stage, can feel absolutely terrifying. For many scientists, it’s part of the job, yet few of us are ever taught how to really do it: how to command a room, connect with an audience, and share our message with confidence and authenticity.

In this episode, Ksenia talks with Emma Gaskin, a former speech therapist and founder of The Speaking Hub, who now helps women in business and leadership find their voice and speak with impact. We dive into:

- Why public speaking feels so scary (and how to move through that fear)

- The power of storytelling - even in data-heavy, scientific talks

- How posture, breath, and nervous system regulation affect your voice

- How to recover gracefully when you freeze or lose your train of thought

- Why being human, imperfect, and relatable makes you a better speaker

Whether you’re a scientist preparing for your next conference talk, a professional learning to lead meetings, or someone who simply wants to feel more confident being heard, this conversation is full of practical tools and mindset shifts to help you speak up with courage and clarity.

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Emma's information:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thespeakinghub/
Instagram: @emmajgaskin

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hi friends, welcome back to Month's Maths and Manuscripts. Grab your coffee or tea or whatever is your beverage of choice. I have my little espresso. It's a bit too late for that, but I need one. And today I'm chatting to Emma Gaskin, who is a public speaking and voice coach that helps female business owners to speak their truth and get paid to talk on stage. And we're diving into talking from the heart, all things public speaking, confidence, and fears around public speaking. And I'm really excited for this conversation. So welcome Emma. Thank you so much.

Speaker: 0:40

I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Thank you for joining me. So I when I saw your profile on Instagram, I was like, okay, I have to talk to you because public speaking is something that is such a common fear. It's such a common anxiety. Like I think it's one of the most common phobias, even you know, people are so scared of it, and I can relate to that so much. I used to absolutely dread it and hate it, and which is a little bit ironic given that I kind of have a podcast now and I talk to people for a living, but I used to be rubbish at it, let's say, and it was such a big fear, and I think I I mean I know that it is a big fear for also many of my former colleagues, and I haven't really met many people who are loving it. You know, I've met people who are good at it and can project confidence, but I haven't met many who love it, and this is kind of the distinction and the um the difference between the two that I wanted to talk to you today. But let's start with your story. So you are actually originally a speech pathologist, right?

Speaker: 1:59

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Can you tell me about your journey to that line of study and line of work initially, and then we move on from there?

Speaker: 2:07

Yeah, sure. So I studied at university to do speech and language therapy or speech pathology, it's known as in different countries. And for the last sort of 10, 11 years, I've helped people with um brain injuries or stroke survivors to speak again after sort of these events. Um, I've worked with people with neurological difficulties, so Parkinson's dementia, um, and it's all my role was very much all about working, working out where was the breakdown in communication and what are the things that we can do to really re-facilitate it, because we know all about neuroplasticity and the beauty of the brain and learning to do things again. Or how do we maintain the speech that people still have, but we know it's gonna sort of unfortunately deteriorate further?

Speaker 1: 2:59

Okay.

Speaker: 3:00

What's inspired you to pursue that? Well, that's I do know nobody's ever asked me that before. Can you believe that? But actually, um, it's a it's a story I really like to share. I was supposed to go to university do university to do English, um, English language. I've always loved reading, I've always loved um like writing. But when I did my A levels, I just just like felt that there was something, maybe something else out there for me. And actually it was my mum who worked in a school, had spoken to an educational psychologist who she sort of told them, told them what I'd studied, and he came back and said, Oh, she should have a look at speech therapy. So I did, fell in love with it from the sort of description of it and applied and didn't get in because this was August and you start university in September. And then a week before the course started, I got a phone call saying we've had someone drop out and we'd absolutely love to have you. And that was, I think, a week before it started. So yeah, it was it was quite unexpected, but I've absolutely loved working in communication and working with people ever since.

Speaker 1: 4:12

So it was kind of like a serendipitous um situation that's that brought you to that, and then you fell in love with it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So then you worked in that for 10 years, then 11 years you mentioned, right?

Speaker: 4:25

Yeah, in the National Health Service. So I've I've always worked with adults. I I did do plate placements with children, but my first job was in adults, and that's sort of what I specialized in. And then sort of worked in that ever since, really.

Speaker 1: 4:40

I see. And what was the turning point? Like, how did you decide that that's it for you? Like, I don't know if you if you thought that you cannot grow there any longer, or what happened to bring you from speech therapy, language therapy to uh coaching and basically teaching people how to tell their stories?

Speaker: 5:05

Yeah, so I did a coaching qualification through the NHS, through the health service, and and really loved the way it was delivered and how you sort of assume that people already know the answers and you're just guiding them to it rather than just teaching. But as much as I love speech therapy and I love the NHS, it is very restrictive and prescriptive. So it's you've had a stroke, this is what's wrong with you, this is the therapy you will get. Whereas in coaching, even though in speech therapy they teach you to be holistic and look at a person as a whole, it is much more medical. And you miss so much of the person when you do that. So if I had two two clients, two patients who had had similar types of strokes, they have similar issues, you do similar therapy with them. Yeah, one of them does much better than the other. Why is that? And usually that comes down to mindset, to motivation, the want to communicate, the people they've got around them encouraging these things. So the beauty of coaching is you have that element of it as well. It looks at a person as a whole, and I can help people without being like, well, you've had six sessions, that's it, you'll have to go. You know, we can help, I can help people and give them that gold standard of care that I've always wanted to do, that it wasn't always possible when you're in a in a public health service situation.

Speaker 1: 6:37

I mean, I I I I understand that, yeah, it's uh it's a bit ironic that the gold standard of care is not really applicable to these places very often.

Speaker: 6:50

Yeah, and actually I I something I really struggled with when I was in one of my roles, my colleague left, and I was the only one left in the team. This is when I was doing home visits for people who had come home from hospital after a stroke. And my colleague left. I was the only person in the team, and the caseload, the amount of people needing to be seen, tripled. This was just at the beginning of COVID. And I remember saying to my manager at the time, like, I just can't give the people the level of care that I want. And she was just like, We just have to live with the fact we can't give a gold standard of care. And I was like, but why? But why? And unfortunately, it it's like trying to hit your your head against a brick wall when you're like, but why? And I want to do things differently, and being told no and being sort of kept in a box, really. And I just was ready to break out of that and help people in a different way.

Speaker 1: 7:45

I love it. And I mean, I imagine also that you mentioned that it was at the beginning of COVID. I imagine that after COVID things can kind of deteriorated probably even further, and it's I guess now even more complicated to actually that's it. Yeah, maintain your passion, maintain the the standard of care.

Speaker: 8:04

Yeah, yeah, the services have never recovered, unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 8:09

I see so it was passion for helping people and from the beginning, right? And then even more so after you left and transitioned into more coaching-based work. And how did you arrive then to your decision of coaching business women professionals and teaching them to speak on stages and and so on?

Speaker: 8:34

So a lot of this came from sort of my own experience really of witnessing amazing women who can who know their business is inside out. But when it comes to being like asking, oh, what do you do? and people just freeze, or you know, when you've got a 60-second pitch where you have to explain who you are, what you stand for, and you just can't quite articulate it or can't quite do it justice. So there's that, and then also mixed with the fact that I've been through it myself. So the fact that I was unwell for five years and told by a GP that it essentially was in my head, that she didn't know what to do with me when I came to, you know, the doctor's office crying, and she said, I don't know what to do with you in this state. And I believe that it was it was in my head. I was told I had chronic fatigue syndrome, that it would, you know, I would have just have to deal with it. And actually, it turned out I had undiagnosed celiac disease, which untreated causes all the symptoms I had, the the fatigue, feeling like my muscles were made of lead, like my brain felt so foggy all the time. And I was 24, 25 at the time, so a 20-year-old who couldn't work full-time, who couldn't exercise, who couldn't go out. And when I started to feel better again when I went on my gluten-free diet, I looked around at my life and I sort of realized how small my voice had gotten because I just didn't have the energy to speak up. And because I believed that, well, if it is in my head, I can't trust myself and I can't trust my own voice. And as I started to look around, I thought, okay, I'm I'm spending all day helping people find their voice, and where's mine? So I changed, I changed my life essentially. I I left my permanent role in the NHS. I left a 10-year relationship four months before I was due to get married because I realized my voice was lost and I was following someone else's dreams. And I took the money that was supposed to be for the wedding and I put it into a retreat. It was a retreat in Ibiza. And that was a place where I really realized what my voice could build, and that I could build a business to help other women realize the power of their voice. And because as women, we are, we are taught, we are typically brought up, right, to be polite above all else, right? If you think of the the clothes that are available for girls in the shops versus boys, like princesses, pretty, unicorn, boys are dressed typically as superheroes, soldiers. So from a young age, we are conditioned to be polite, to be kind, to be nurturing versus being bold, being independent. And that sticks with you. And then as you grow up, it sticks with you to the point where you know women are wait till they're 100% ready to apply for a job versus men that will wait till they're 70% ready. And then you get in the workplace. Women are twice as more likely to be interrupted when they speak versus men by both genders. And so throughout our lives, it's consistently reinforced. Stay small, don't speak up, be bold, but not too much, be assertive, but don't be rude. And so I my mission is to help women break through, break free of that, and stand on stage and speak from the heart and speak it with intention, so to deliver a message that really means something to them in a way that lands, so they get paid and they create ripples of change with their voice. They inspire people to do, to do things, to go for the things that they want to do and and to work with them essentially.

Speaker 1: 12:27

I love this. I think this is a really beautiful mission, and yeah, definitely I can I can relate and resonate with the conditioning, the upbringing of like, yeah, you stay quiet, you know, girls are supposed to be in this way, and you're not supposed to be very loud and very you and have a lot of oomph in in anything, right?

Speaker: 12:50

So, and then yeah, we we learn that, and this is how we show up in in our education, in our workplace, and this has a ripple, a negative ripple effect also into then the roles that we play and promotions that we get or don't get, or something like this, and right exactly how we and I'm I mean I sorry, I was gonna say I I was brought up to you know speak my mind, and I was brought in up in a family who encouraged me to speak up, but then you still go to school and you're still told you know told, you know, follow the crowd, don't speak unless spoken to. And it does have an impact. And also because I've been recently diagnosed with ADHD, I've always felt the need to like dampen things down because I've always wanted to speak, I've always been loud, I've always been full of energy, and that that doesn't that's not really typically celebrated because if you're not sat down, if you're not following the rules, so I've always been conscious of am I too much? Do I speak too loudly? Do I ramble? And that it does, it pushes things down, and you can see why so many people and so many women are hesitant to speak up because of it.

Speaker 1: 14:09

Yeah, definitely. And I think also you mentioned something else that I I wanted to explore is the the readiness, the fact that women overprepare and um maybe wait until they're hundred or hundred and ten percent ready to do anything, right? Apply for a job or speak on stage or do anything, right? And then um men might be not doing that. Why why do you think that is it's also based on the on this same conditioning and this the the fact that um we might want to or we might need to show better results to be considered.

Speaker: 14:52

Yeah, I mean research sort of shows that you know when I said before about women being interrupted, the women that are interrupted the most are women who are female leaders. So the women who are on the forefront making the changes, they're the ones being interrupted the most. From literally from judges in a high court are most interrupted, politicians are most interrupted. So you when you start to rise above, people are very quick to kind of push you back down. And so that readiness comes from, I think, a number of things, that sort of fear of judgment, because we are judged more harshly on our appearance, and if we speak out or maybe make a mistake, we are more likely to be judged in a harsh way, and the visibility factor as well, that you know, if you're told time and time again, don't be too much, don't do this, don't do that, versus someone else who's told, Yeah, you can do whatever you want. Oh, it's just uh a boy being a boy, or then of course you're gonna want to make sure that you're ready. And it comes down to the fact that it's a confidence issue, it's not a competence issue. Because it's people you've got men and women on the same level, and some one of those people is more likely to go for it, then it's confidence. And you'll see it time and time again where you'll see other people who are not as qualified as you, who don't have as much experience as you, who seem to be getting bigger, better opportunities, and it's not because they're more competent because they're better, it's because they've spoken up, because they've asked for things, because they're more willing to put themselves out there, and that's mindset and that's confidence.

Speaker 1: 16:41

I think I mean it's obviously very clear and visible probably in in corporate environments, in the business world, but I I think in my experience I also saw that in in science, in academia, and um with the fact that men are usually more confident and um can bullshit through their presentation, through their work much more than women, and women would make try to make sure that their work is impeccable and bulletproof and their presentation is just um perfect until they they do it, and men I think are more likely to kind of wing it, and it's it's interesting uh to to witness that and and a bit of a bit of a shame, let's be honest, because we all have something of value to say, and and yeah, it's um we all should be listened to and heard.

Speaker: 17:50

Yes, um okay, that's what that's what we want as well. Is that's all that people want is just to be seen, valued, and heard. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 17:58

Yeah. Let's for a second jump back to your personal journey and your story. Um, so you mentioned that you had an undiagnosed undiagnosed, sorry, undiagnosed condition for several years, you didn't know what was going on. Then finally the diagnosis came and your feelings of like your spark and everything started to come back, right? And then that prompted you to look at your life, take stock, leave the relationship, leave NHS. Um did it feel like so you you kind of had this lightable moment that okay, I cannot go on like this, and I need to I need to start fresh, I need to have a clean slate, or was it a decision that was brewing for a long time? This complete overhaul.

Speaker: 18:52

It was a bit of both. I think over time I had realized that you know, something in the background in your mind going, there's got to be more than this. This almost like restlessness feeling of there's there's more out there, there's more than this. But there is a very distinct moment when I remember being sat on the edge of my bed in my NHS uniform, and it felt like there was this rain cloud on my head, and it was like a pressure on my chest and my throat that just followed me around all the time and just thinking to myself, like, is this it? Is this my life? Surely there's more to it. And I I actually started by um started really small by going to a dance class. I'd sort of danced a little bit when I was like younger, but nothing professional just for fun. But it was a dance class that was all about female empowerment, and I'd start off, like I started off at the back, and people would record themselves on their phones, and I'd start off right at the back in the shadows, and then as time went on, I'd be more at the front. And I did a I call it a solo, but it was very much like hair flicking and booty shaking, but like a solo and putting my videos onto Instagram to show, like, oh my gosh, and being so nervous the first time, and that really hugely helped with my confidence and sort of remembering who I was, and then really it kind of came to a uh a head where I was just I realized one day like this is this is not for me, like something has to change. I'm sat for another day doing doing the things I don't really want to do, waiting for my life to start. And when I thought it was going to start, actually I realized that everything was going to be a compromise. I was sort of waiting for my like ex to finish his deg his degree or his second degree. And then I was like, right, cool, now you've done that, like we can, you know, I can start to do the things I want to do, and it was just a compromise. And then I was like, oh okay, I've waited all this time thinking my life was about to start, and actually it's not what I think it's gonna be. So now I'm gonna make I'm gonna make it happen. And it was a tough decision, it was very difficult to leave, and but it was 100% the right decision.

Speaker 1: 21:16

This is very inspiring because actually one of my kind of big reasons, big whys in in life in a way, is uh to So I have a son, right? And I want him to know that he is not a tree. And if he's not in a nurturing and safe environment for him, he is not attached to it, he can leave. Because this is what I felt as well. Like I was kind of feeling stuck in academia and in a PhD, right? And and then I um made a decision that nobody understood, and for everybody outside, it kind of seemed like it was like I I I'd gone off the rails, you know, I had gone completely crazy because it looked spontaneous from the outside, but it wasn't, it was also kind of brewing for a while. So I can relate to your story very much, and like I also actually went back to dancing. No way. For me, it was tango though. When I when I made the decision, I went back to dance classes and I kind of also reconnected through that with the part of myself that was dormant while like I or put on hold while I was achieving things in science, quote unquote, right? And um, yeah, so I can I can very much resist your story, and definitely I find it so inspiring that when when people do these drastic changes that are right for them without really, you know, without worrying, like, oh, I put so much time or I put so much effort without the without considering the some cost fallacy, and there's already so much time put on or or money into the wedding vendors and things like that. So, but no, you you have to live your life, and if it's not nurturing for you, you have to then start fresh.

Speaker: 23:08

So yeah, I was really I was really lucky that I I had a friend who supported me with that decision because for friends and family it looked very like like what is going on, like what has happened, but it was just something that I decided like this is it, it's got to it's got to change.

Speaker 1: 23:28

I cannot imagine how hard it was, but I am so happy to hear that you now see it as a as the best decision, as the the thing that yeah was Yeah.

Speaker: 23:39

No, it's like one of those things where you think you think surely I can't do that, surely X is not possible, like or Y is not possible, and then you do it, and then you start to realize, oh my goodness, if this is possible, like what else? Like and it's it's kind of similar with a lot of things where there's been so many things and so many self-limiting beliefs I've had. I'm not this, I'm not that, I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that. And then you you start to achieve them, you start to smash through them, you think, wow, okay, and you just realize you have this glass ceiling above your head that you can you can lift, you can smash through, you can shatter it, and what else is out there for you to sort of conquer, which is actually really exciting.

Speaker 1: 24:23

This is a this is such a good perspective that yeah, we need to see these things as exciting and not daunting, right? I guess it's the same with maybe speaking opportunities and giving presentations at conferences or or or talking on stage or whatever it is, that we can try to reframe it as excitement and curiosity, and how can I do this? How can I tell a story instead of being so fearful? So maybe that is a good segue to why are we so scared of it?

Speaker: 24:58

Yes, very good question. So a lot of it comes down to there's a couple of things. So you as you mentioned, like so many people, it's one of the top fears of all time. It's around estimated around 70% of people have some sort of fear of public speaking, which is huge, and to the point where it could is consistently rated as what as the top fear above above the fear of death. What? So people are more likely to be willing to be in the casket or in the coffin than to be reading the eulogy, and when you put it like that, you're like, this is this is crazy. But it also shows that you're not alone, you're not the only person that feels this way. And a lot of that is because of the spotlight effect, so the feeling of everybody's looking at me, everybody can see what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, when actually most people are sat in the audience thinking about what they're gonna have for dinner that night. And it's it comes down to this innate survival instinct to be part of a pact, be part of a tribe to survive, because coming out of that and being on your own, that would mean you wouldn't survive, right? And even though that's not necessarily the case now, it's still very much intact. And I sort of liken it to like our brain is like this computer with outdated software. So we respond the same way to, you know, I'm sure your listeners and are very familiar with fight or flight, but it we we react the same way to public speaking in our bodies as we would to a lion be chasing us, that it's it feels like life or death. And that was really useful when we were chased by bears, we were chased by lions, but not so useful anymore. But it is can feel like the same physical symptoms and the the same chemicals, and that's why I also very often get people to reframe it as excitement because it's the same chemicals, but it's just how we choose to choose to perceive them in our brain. If you think about like fear and excitement, that like the adrenaline feeling you get, so maybe like the spark in your chest, or like feeling like you've got all this energy that you want to run around, the the shaky voice, that all of that you can experience in excitement as well. So something really simple to do is to literally just keep telling yourself, I'm really excited, I'm really excited. And it it's simple, but it does help. But you do need to help yourself believe it.

Speaker 1: 27:37

That's yeah, it's true what you said that we like our environment has changed. We are not really um being cast out of our tribe or our our village if we are choosing to speak up, but it does feel like that, and our biology hasn't caught up with this, right? Right. So exactly. Um yeah, I am really loving the reframe of of that fear and adrenaline as excitement, and it's something that I'm going to try.

Speaker: 28:08

One one tip I will definitely recommend is try is I will say to my clients, tell me one thing that you're excited to share with the audience. So it might just be one thing like, oh, I've got this really cool video to demonstrate this concept, or I know that this tip is going to be really helpful for for these people, and focus on that. Like the one thing that you're actually quite excited to help the people in the audience and tell the people that you're speaking to about, and focus on that.

Speaker 1: 28:38

That's a great piece of advice, and I think this is something that yeah, we we also often forget that we are so focused on on maybe sounding smart or being perceived a certain way, or giving the perfect talk. I don't know, maybe going through all our slides on time, whatever it is that we focus on, that we forget that there is actually some maybe golden nuggets of of interesting things or useful things, helpful things that we are happy or should be happy to share with the audience, right?

Speaker: 29:14

Exactly. And the big thing is to remember that actually the talk isn't about you. And like you said, we're so caught up on thinking about what they're gonna think about me, what if I get it wrong, what if I stutter over my words, but actually the focus is on the audience. What are you gonna teach them today? What do you want them to feel when you finish speaking? What do you want them to do? Because actually speaking is about the audience and who you're talking to. And once you realize that, A, your talks get a lot better because, as you said, you're not proving yourself trying to prove yourself as the expert. And also the the focus goes from you to them, and that takes a lot of the pressure off as well.

Speaker 1: 29:57

I think that's gonna be so helpful. For scientists to understand, because this is something that, yeah, it's it's often so deeply ingrained that this is about us and our research, and we have to be like we are going to be judged because I mean, somewhat we are, because then scientists, academics are trained to find bits and pieces in in anything that are wrong or not so strong, and like critique it, and um you are going to be, but it's not you, it's right, it's your research, it's your work, and it's about that, and about how to make it better, how to make it more strong, and maybe answer the questions that you're seeking to answer, not about you as a person.

Speaker: 30:47

Yeah, having to separate the two, separate the two, yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 30:52

But it's it's very hard. I I know also from personal experience that this is very hard. Like you are feeling that you you are under magnifying glass, and every every mistake, inability to answer questions, is so scary, and so then you are, you know, you're lying in bed at night and remembering this and thinking, Oh my god, how could I do that?

Speaker: 31:15

Yeah, why didn't I say this or why did I say that? And and that's why it's it is so important to learn the skill because that's what it is, like speaking, communicating. It's a set of skills and it's something that's teachable, but you have to A for first of all find things that work for you, and B, invest the time into learning and practicing them. Because we learn how to do so many things, right? We learn how to drive, we learn how to run a business. You might invest in a coach to help you develop your business, or you learn how to do your job to your your science, your research, but you don't really learn, ever learn how to speak or to communicate well. And yet, when you're giving your presentation on your work, when you're introducing yourself, when you're networking, what is the one tool that you're always using? Your communication, your voice. And so that's why it's so worth learning how to communicate effectively and and and well.

Speaker 1: 32:20

It's true that this is not often taught in in university, in PhD programs, like we get generic stuff, like don't read from your slides, or um let's say don't fidget too much with the pointer or whatever, but there is not a lot of conversations happening about confidence and about other maybe some yeah, mindset shifts and reframing this nervousness as excitement and this kind of stuff. So what would be maybe some other examples of of this kind of like little little tweaks, little mindset shifts that can help people going from I hate public speaking to okay, I can tolerate it?

Speaker: 33:09

Yeah, I think it's realizing that public speaking is like I said, it is a skill and it is something that's learnable, that's teachable, that you can improve. Like any other skill, if you decided to learn how to play the piano, you wouldn't be amazing at it overnight. Whereas if you already knew a little bit, it's a it's that little bit easier to improve, but it still takes a little bit of time. So mindset shifts. So instead of you know, focusing on maybe the sensations that you feel or the fears that you have, like I said, focusing on the audience that what you're excited to share with them, and then also building up evidence in your brain that you have got something worth sharing, like you know, if I make a mistake, well, that's okay. Like the perfect speakers, or let's say the top speakers. So if you look at like Brene's Brown's vulnerability TED Talk, it's really powerful. Why? Because of the story she shares. She says um quite a few times in that, you know, um, like filler words, but nobody notices that. People are listening to what she's saying and the story that she's telling and how she makes you feel. It's about the connection. And I know you know you as a scientist, it might be like, well, how do I do that about research? But for example, um, actually, I was asked to do a speaking gig for a pharmacology company about presenting research at a conference. And so one of the things that was in my presentation was, how do you make this, how do you make the audience care? So if you're gonna present about, and you know, please excuse me if I butcher this, but if you're gonna present about, for example, a a condition like COPD, which is a set of lung conditions, right? And you're talking about a treatment, you can talk about p-values, you can talk about variables, and people are gonna be like, okay, and yes, I know a scientist, you will zoom in and pick that. But if I say to you that a hundred thousand people every year cannot walk to the shop and back because they're so breathless, but this drug means that they can do that. Think of somebody in your life that maybe can't do anything without an inhaler, who maybe can't go down to the local shop, they can't get up and down the stairs. With this drug, they can do that. And this meant that their quality of life is better. They can play with their grandchildren, they can, you know, chase their dog around the yard. That quality suddenly it becomes human and suddenly becomes interesting, and you're connecting with that story. Maybe you're thinking about someone in your life who's got, say, asthma or has breathlessness that you can relate that experience to.

unknown: 36:05

Yeah.

Speaker: 36:06

And that that's the way in with public speaking, think about it as a skill. Think about how you can bring in a story and think about just one thing that you think, ooh, actually, I'm quite excited to share. Maybe you are excited to share about your work and focus on that.

Speaker 1: 36:24

I love that it's about connection and yeah, connecting with the humanness of it all, even if we're talking about sharing data and graphs and numbers and not really stories, but there is a story and there is an aspect of vulnerability maybe in everything, right? So maybe we just haven't looked for it hard enough. Maybe we'll just say that.

Speaker: 36:51

And yeah, and thinking about who your audience is as well. Like if you're telling research outcomes to another group of scientists, you're gonna speak in a certain way, but still bring in those elements to make it human, make it interesting. If you're speaking to maybe a different audience who don't have that same level of knowledge of you, adapt what you're saying. Now you don't have to dumb anything down. But, you know, being an expert doesn't mean that you know everything. Uh an expert is taking a complex problem, concept, situation, and breaking it down and making it easy to understand. That's what an expert is.

Speaker 1: 37:34

Yeah, I think that this is a common misconception that we feel. I mean, it's true for science, but also for other areas and other uh professions that we think that to sound like an expert, to be perceived like an expert, we need to use this complex jargon and and talk in a very complicated way and and throw in all the terms so that people see that you're smart and you're you know what you're talking about, which in reality makes it even more confusing, and you sound a little bit like, nah, I'm not going to listen to this person.

Speaker: 38:07

Exactly. People are uh they're decoding, they're deciphering what you're saying, they're working it out, and they're so busy being caught up on that that they're not listening to what you're saying now. That it's not and the information that you're saying isn't sinking in. So they're missing out on the next thing that you're saying, and they're not really taking on board the information that you're giving.

Speaker 2: 38:27

Yeah.

Speaker: 38:28

So it's make it make it understandable. You don't have to necessarily, you know, dumb down your knowledge, but just make it accessible and understandable for people.

Speaker 1: 38:40

This is something to remember, yeah. That's um, as they say, if you cannot explain it to your grandmother, you don't really understand it yourself.

Speaker: 38:47

So um, right? And don't they always say like um that's the best way to test your knowledge as well? Like you said, is to teach it to somebody else. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:56

Yeah. Okay, so storytelling, human connection, finding something that you are yourself excited about, remembering that talking is not about you, but it's about your audience and what you can teach them. What did I forget? Did I forget something?

Speaker: 39:15

I think that you've got most all of it. And that you don't have to, you don't have to overcomplicate things. Like so many people I see make the mistake of proving themselves. Like, look what I've done, look what I've achieved. And although there's a place for your story and who you are in a talk to show why the audience should trust you to know what you're talking about, that should be a very small percentage. The rest of it should be about your audience.

Speaker 1: 39:47

That's a yeah, that's another mindset shift that is probably going to be a bit complicated for for some people to work out, but it's yeah, it's interesting. Let's move to your current work as a coach for women in business. And I'm really curious. So you worked with many clients one-on-one or in a group setting, right? And I'm curious what would be maybe an example, you know, you know, you don't have to name any names, obviously, but an example of like the biggest transformation that you've witnessed over your work as a speaking coach from maybe like a complete mess to confidence.

Speaker: 40:30

That is a really good question. There's a there's a couple that come to mind. One would be somebody who, a woman who's already very established in her business, she had a seven-figure business that she'd built from nothing and didn't but didn't believe she had anything worthwhile sharing. And she was being asked to go and do these speaking opportunities, and she was just like, I just don't think why are people gonna want to listen to me? Why why do I have anything worth sharing? And over the time we worked together, she sort of unlocked her voice, and she actually said to me, like, Emma, I can't stop speaking. I've unlocked my voice, and like day and night, I just keep talking, and you know, and she ended up being featured in a in a national magazine because of her story, because of the things that she'd done. And I've kind of saying to her, like, what would you, what do you wish you knew five, ten years ago? They're the things that people want to hear. Like, of course, people, of course, women want to hear how you built a business from scratch with no qualifications when you left school at 16. Or recently I've worked with a woman, again, already has an established business, but hadn't fully shared her story fully of sort of how she was brought up not to not to speak out because she was laughed at by, you know, her own family figure. One of her parents would laugh at her when she would speak. So in her head, she had internalized speaking up is dangerous. It's not safe to be seen. So working through, and that's always the first step of my my framework, my speak up framework is everyone will have these beliefs and these self-limiting beliefs, these stories, these narratives when it comes to speaking. So, you know, as I said, for me, it was around like don't be too much, don't be overbearing, don't stop trying to be the center of attention. When for other women it's it'll be a similar through line, but for a maybe a different reason, like it's not safe to speak up, or maybe someone who's very shy because they don't believe they have anything worth saying. So that's that's a big part. And then the the next things I always take my clients through are is the storytelling, why people want to hear from you, and the fact that if you tell your story, that's the reason why someone wants to work with you instead of somebody else. And this client that I just worked with, like I said, having been told that she she would be laughed at every time she spoke, she went on sort of stage and and shared her story for the first time in full. And it was just such a redeeming thing. I I got to see a video of it, and I afterwards she was like, that was really scary because it's so hard to put yourself out there and be vulnerable. But she's also said to me, you know, something's just clicked that I'm not willing to stay quiet about anymore. And they're the they're the first steps that I love to see. And then there's also the whole how do you deliver? Like, how do you master really delivering a talk and how you can use your voice in a particularly powerful way? And then how do you get paid to go and do talks on stages and get people to pay for your voice and package it up in a way that you and other people can really see its value? So there's a there's a lot to it.

Speaker 1: 44:02

But it's the sort of the the the why and the why not? So why why are we hiding, right? That are the the keys to unlocking the the voice that's been maybe hidden away for such a long time for years and years. Exactly. I feel like I I need to talk to you after that about my voice as well. Is there something maybe something like physiological or physical? So because I mean I'm a yoga teacher, I'm also obviously talking about that and uh the power of of your breath and your posture for how you're feeling. And is there something also physiological that you tell your clients, like something to do right before the talk to maybe discharge, discharge some of this nervous energy or to feel more empowered to I don't know, whatever it is.

Speaker: 44:59

Yes, absolutely, like posture, grounding, breath, also interlinked, as you very well know, but really getting grounded in your body. So very often we're up here, we're in our heads. What will they think of me? What if I mess up? And actually, I I do like a grounding exercise with my clients to get them back into their body so that A, they know that they're safe, and also B, that they can tell, they can monitor their body and they're grounded in it and they're present because that presence is so important. And when you're present and you're aware of your body, that's when you can have improve your posture, for example. If you have a posture where you're not lent over, you're not hunched, your shoulders are back, your chest is wide, that also gives you access to better breathing. And you'll know all about that with yoga. Now, interestingly, I have yoga teachers who are like, I know how to breathe in yoga, I know how important it is, but then when I speak on stage, when I leave a voice note for somebody, when I'm explaining something, I run out of breath. And that's because being able to pair your breathing with speech is again another skill. Very often when we're nervous, we'll take those short breaths in, the shoulders come up when we breathe in, the tummy comes up, or sorry, is pulled in. When actually, when we take deeper breaths, we're calming our nervous systems. The other things I get people to do as well is hum. A, it's a good warm-up for your voice, but also it's a great way to stimulate the vagus nerve, and that's going to tell your body and your nervous system that you're safe. But a big, big part is breathing. So without breath, there is no voice. You always speak on an out breath. So, like, try. If people are listening back to this, pause it and try speaking on an in-breath, and it sounds really strange. And that's because the air travels from our lungs up into our throat where our vocal cords live and they vibrate. That's what produces voice. So if you're breathing very shallowly, not only are you sort of telling your body that you're in danger, but physically things tense up and you're not getting the right breath support. And that's why you can feel very short of breath as well when you're speaking. So it's all about staying grounded, being present, calming that nervous system, and making sure you're breathing. So this is almost like you say, the physiology, the science behind speaking. Because if you're not, if you're full of adrenaline and nerves, how are you also going to move the muscles that you need to speak? When things are feeling shaky, when you're you're not feeling in control of your body.

Speaker 1: 47:46

This is also something that we rarely think about. Like we were trying we are trying to get through the the talk maybe in the allocated time as fast as possible, cram as much information in there as possible so we talk faster, we again breathe more shallowly and shakily because of that. And that influences how we speak. And maybe if we just talked a little bit slower and a little bit more mindfully and like we're more present, that would make the speech better instead of I don't know, more boring, or what we might be thinking about. Okay. Um another another question, I think maybe one of the last ones, is so you are on stage and the nervousness for me at least, when whenever I was giving a talk, speaking even to tiny audiences of my like research group, um the nerves would be there for the first maybe couple of minutes, but then I would relax into it. But there were also still moments when maybe I would talk and then lose the train of thought and kind of freeze up because I forget what I was going to say next or where where I was going with this thought, and then you freeze up, and then you're like, oh shit, and what do I do now? What do you do in this moment?

Speaker: 49:03

Oh my goodness. I have been there, honestly. I have been there and I was stood in front of a group of women and I couldn't remember what came next on my side, and this fe and I'd never like I'd I've I'd been nervous before, and I still get nervous when I taught now. That's that is absolutely normal. But I remember this fear of this like wave of panic coming up my legs, up into my chest and my body, and this feeling I'd never had before that I wanted to run from the room, and I froze and I couldn't remember my words. And there's a number of things you can do, like when that happens, pause, get a drink of water. People expect you to have a drink of water. By the time you've walked to get your water and come back, something will have turned up. I actually flicked to my next slide and was like, oh yeah, and sort of carried on. And don't be afraid to pause and maybe if somebody's asked you a question, for example, repeat the question. Say, so for example, um, what do you do when you freeze up on stage? I could say, what do you do when you freeze up on stage? That's a really great question. I then have my water. Okay. By that time, you've had a good few seconds. Something will come to your mind. And what I will say is that that pause that you think lasts an eternity is much shorter than you think it is. And actually, I wrote a post on like LinkedIn and on Instagram about it. And people who were in the audience were like, What? And they thought I was like making it up for the content, but when I watched the video back, you can hardly can't really tell. So all of this, all of this feeling, emotion, and fear was inside my body, and I can remember it so well, this wave, this ripple, and this feeling of like I'm I need to leave the room. And you couldn't even, you couldn't tell on the outside.

Speaker 1: 51:00

Yeah.

Speaker: 51:01

So just remembering people don't know what's going on with your brain, that a pause is okay. And actually, when a pause is done well, it's very powerful when you speak.

Speaker 1: 51:11

That's that's a skill as well, I imagine. Like making a pause very like calm and full of intention, and not just say, Oh my god, I'm I need to run away from this situation.

Speaker: 51:24

Yes, that's when you really step into your power as a speaker and you almost take your power back. Like I see us, we often give our power to the thought of public speaking, like the because of the fear. You're giving your power away. And when you start pausing and when you say a point that you really want people to listen to and take notice, just pause, just count to three in your head, and it just lets them absorb it and it makes you sound like a very confident speaker, even if you don't feel that way inside.

Speaker 1: 51:54

That's very interesting. I think, yeah, this is something that people need to kind of pay attention to and try and try to introduce into their next um opportunity at public speaking. Okay. Um I think I mean, when we when we have these moments, when we have these freeze situations, or we forget where we were going with the thought, or we make a mistake, or say something that's you know um weird, sounded weird, came out, came out weirdly. It's also so like in our head it's so big, but from the audience point of view, I think it's so normal that people then apologize and we're like, okay, I'm sorry, I just lost the train of thought. Let's let's move on to the next point. I think the audience often will not put as much attention, will will not sometimes will not notice, as you said, that things are happening to you, or sometimes will kind of not care. Why are we so scared of being vulnerable and showing up as humans?

Speaker: 53:00

It's that fear of imperfection, right? Like you say, being seen as human, being seen as not perfect, and that fear of like, what if I put myself out there? I'm I'm myself, I'm seen as myself, and I'm rejected. And again, it comes down to that that innate need to be accepted. But you know, instead of the fear of what if I'm too much and what if I mess up, what if I freeze? Well, what about if you went out there and you did a really great job? Like, what if you got amazing feedback? What if one person from your talk did something different because of the words you said?

Speaker 1: 53:45

Yeah.

Speaker: 53:45

Like that's what you're missing out on when you're giving away your power. And when you were saying about, oh, when you lose your thought, your trail and your thought, your thought process, it's so, so normal, as you said. But also it really shows how important prep is and how important it is to know how to map out a talk and to give like have structures and frameworks that you're gonna work from. Because a lot of people, one of the biggest mistakes I see, and I I suspect maybe less in sort of your experience with presentations, but a lot of people will wing it. A lot of people will wing it because either they're so afraid to face the fact that they're gonna go and do it, so they just wing it and leave it to last moment, or because they're conf actually they're confident. I can speak about this. But when you go off track, yes, it's human, or when you go off on a tangent, like how boring is it to listen to someone that goes on and on and on and doesn't know when to stop? When you when you know how to speak, how to communicate, how to use frameworks, how to use structures, you sound like a leader and you sound interesting, and people want to listen to you. People want to engage with you, and that's the difference between someone who knows how to communicate and somebody who who doesn't.

Speaker 1: 55:07

Okay, so that would be maybe one mistake that you wish people would stop doing is is winging and underestimating the importance of preparing for your talks, whatever they are. Yes. Okay. Um any other mistakes that you see that that are like really killing the the vibe of a of a talk or presentation?

Speaker: 55:33

Again, if when it comes down to prep, like if you've ever been to a conference or event where somebody's run over time, so maybe they're talking supposed to be 30 minutes and it's 45, and then it it actually just knocks off the whole rest of the day. Like you're inconveniencing the event organizers, you're impacting on the rest of the speakers that are supposed to come because somebody will have to cut, they're gonna have to find extra time somewhere. So there's that. And then other mistakes, I think, would just be a lot of the things that I've kind of already mentioned in terms of getting caught up in themselves, either talking completely about themselves or not mentioning themselves at all because they don't want to be seen to sort of be bragging. But again, people want to know about you. We want to keep it all about the audience and what they learn, but they do want to know about you and why you're the person to teach those things. Um, people winging it, and just people not investing or not really committing to mastering public speaking, because it's a set of skills that once you do master, you are set for life, and that you can use time and time again. And that's how you that's how you that's how you influence people, right? And what I mean by that is that's how how you attract people to work with you, that's how you attract opportunities that you want, promotions, the clients that you want, the speaking opportunities that you want, podcast opportunities, it's through your voice and how you communicate.

Speaker 1: 57:06

Yeah, indeed. Okay, one last thing. So making the coming back to to scientists and coming back to like presenting presenting data, presenting like a very precise thing that you know people might think, okay, where's where is the where's where do I put myself first of all in this, and where do I put a st like how do I make it into a story? How do I make it into something interesting? And like I think usually scientists don't really bother with this, and again, you know, we are taught very basic presenting skills as in don't read from the slides and stuff like that, and there is not a lot of the the storytelling and the engagement or like engaging with the audience aspect to it. What would you maybe recommend specifically to that kind of um speakers and maybe this kind of audience um where they think that they have to be very scientific, very academic, and there is no space for storytelling. How can you weave a little bit of story into your academic presentation or academic talk?

Speaker: 58:27

It's first of all, it's definitely okay to have some personality, and you can still be professional and be seen as a leader. And actually, one of the ways to stand out as a leader is through public speaking. So think about how you're introducing your talk. Can you introduce it with a story? Could you and a story, when I say that, it doesn't have to be like once upon a time, it could be, you know, maybe you have a family member with a specific condition that you're researching, or maybe something that you've been through, or just even so, for example, I have a client who is a hypnotherapist, psychotherapist, and instead of starting her talk with, hello, I'm I'll use my name. Hi, I'm Emma, I'm a hypnot, I'm here to talk to you about da-da-da-da. She started with how many millions of people in the UK are seeking mental health services. And it was like, it was this huge number. And then she put it in that perspective of how many, what size country it was. So I think it was the same amount of people that live in the whole of Sweden. And straight away there, you're create, you're telling a story because you're painting a picture. So the the the whole population of Sweden, that same amount of people are needing help with their mental health. Why? Because of then she talked about XYZ. And this is why it's so important that we get in there and we do preventative measures and that we have skills. And tools to help our mental health. Straight away, people are invested. Imagine if you and put yourself in the position of somebody who that's related to the research that you're doing. You know, imagine if so many people didn't have to take a day off sick from work. Why? Because this particular research we've done is around people's mental health in the workplace. And I would talk about think about your audience. What does your audience want to know? What problem do you solve that all with that audience and paint kind of paint a story around that? It doesn't all have to be data and facts. You can bring some human into it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:55

That's a lovely message to finish on. That yeah, there's definitely some degree of humanness. And also, I think I would love our audience to remember that they have something worth saying and they their message, their research, their passion need to be heard and seen. And through that, through public speaking, you can kind of share it into the world. Okay. To finalize, to to round it up, can you tell us where we can find more about you, where we can find your work, where maybe people can find you and follow you?

Speaker: 1:01:34

Yes, absolutely. So my main platform is LinkedIn. So Emma Gaskin or The Speaking Hub. And I'm also on Instagram. My handle is Emma J4jam Gaskin. And that's where you can find me.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

I put all the links in the descriptions and everything. And yeah, I definitely learned so much. And I hoped also that the audience will find a lot of interesting thoughts, a lot of maybe reframes and things that they haven't thought of before about how to make their presentations and their um opportunities to share their stories and their research better and more engaging and more worth listening to in a way that, yeah, why the audience should care. So thank you so much for sharing your story, for sharing your advice, for sharing your wisdom with us. And I really loved this conversation.

Speaker: 1:02:34

Thank you for joining me. You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me and giving me this platform to share my message.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

And thank you to our listeners for joining us here. And don't forget to follow, don't forget to share it with somebody who might need to hear these tips, this advice, these mindset shifts. And this really helps more people find about our espresso fueled conversations. And I'll see you soon.