Moms, Mats and Manuscripts
Moms, Mats and Manuscripts is a podcast hosted by Ivna, a PhD student in biomedicine, a yoga teacher and a mom, and Ksenia a former molecular biologist, a yoga teacher for scientists and a mom, too. This is a space to talk about all things academia, motherhood and yoga with humour and vulnerability.
We chat about mental health in academia, mindful productivity, and surviving and enjoying early motherhood while bringing yoga wisdom into our lives, share our stories and offer tips on navigating life's chaotic adventures.
Moms, Mats and Manuscripts
S3E4 - Academic mobility: Lessons and love stories from the places we’ve lived in
What does home really mean when you've lived across half a dozen countries? In this heartwarming and honest episode, we share our personal journeys through Europe and Asia - from summer internships and PhDs to falling in love, becoming mothers, and redefining identity with every move.
💬 We talk about:
- The unexpected butterfly effects that changed our lives 🌍
- What it's like to move for love, work, or curiosity
- How motherhood reshaped our sense of home and roots
- Building rituals and finding grounding amidst constant change
- The grief of losing friendships through distance
- Creating meaningful connections as adults and moms
- Feeling like a global citizen… and feeling lost at times
Whether you're an expat, scientist, mom, or someone navigating transitions, this episode will resonate deeply. It's about finding stability in people, not places, and knowing that home lives inside you.
Don't forget to like, follow, and share our podcast! We'd love to hear your thoughts and questions, and if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line.
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@moms.mats.manuscripts
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Ksenia's Instagram: shantiscience_yoga
Reach out: moms.mats.manuscripts@gmail.com
Hi, we're Ksenia and Ivna and this is Moms, Maths and Manuscripts,
Speaker 00:a podcast where honest conversations flow freely.
Speaker 02:We talk about yoga, motherhood, science and all the messy moments in between that shape us.
Speaker 00:So grab a cup of your favorite drink, settle in and join us for today's episode.
Speaker 02:All right. Hello, hello. It's a new episode. Here we are. Yeah, so today we're talking about a topic that is near and dear to our hearts. We've experienced that personally and it's moving countries, changing where you live, packing all your life into one suitcase or however many suitcases and moving to the other end of the continent or the world and all in the name of
Speaker 00:academic career.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 00:I think it's like at the time it was bringing two passions together, this desire to travel and like desire to learn. And when you're a young student, it sounds really attractive. I can go wherever, right? But then maybe it's a trap. We will see. We
Speaker 02:will see. Definitely, I think we've experienced a lot of different facets and a lot of different things. aspects of this academic mobility and just moving in general. So let's discuss and see where the conversation takes us.
Speaker 00:I think both of us traveled quite much, lived in many different places. I think a nice idea would be to go through all the places, kind of think about the time, reminisce a little bit about it and see what we learned, how it was and share. What do you think?
Speaker 02:Yeah, definitely. Let's go through the list.
Speaker 00:What was the first country for you?
Speaker 02:So for me, the first country was the UK. Yeah. to Scotland to Edinburgh right after school so I finished high school and I went to university in Edinburgh oh really like the for the bachelor right away yes right away okay wow this was the first time that I've ever been to UK I never was there as a tourist or any in any other capacity until I moved there to leave which is something that I don't recommend
Speaker 00:It's like an all-in.
Speaker 02:All-in, yeah. And it was a bit crazy because I came there, I landed, I saw some volunteers from the university in the airport that helped me, directed me to the taxi and to how to get to my university dorm, the student accommodation. And immediately, like from this first minute, I was like, what have I done?
Speaker 01:Oh, no.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:in like not in a bad way but I was just already a little bit shocked because well clearly this is not the language that I studied for 12 years in school
Speaker 00:yeah what are they speaking
Speaker 02:like exactly this was already kind of a rude awakening but then you know I love Edinburgh I had so much fun I have only the the warmest nicest feelings towards this place i mean it was also really formative years both in my education and just in my kind of maturation process and growing up becoming an independent ish adult and yeah this was this was a great experience overall you know once you kind of settle in once you find your footing a little bit it was it was pretty amazing
Speaker 00:Did you know anyone there or you also needed to make friends from zero? I
Speaker 02:knew one other person who was moving also from Tallinn. to Edinburgh and starting actually in the same in the same kind of bachelor because you start with a group of like 400 people that then kind of get narrowed into into individual tracks as the years progress so we were all in like biological sciences and I knew him through another friend of mine through a classmate of mine so I didn't know him personally we just chatted on Facebook um maybe a couple of weeks before going there and then we met already there we met in our first lecture and it was easier to have somebody that you kind of know a little bit but then you know most of your friendships are then still going to be made from scratch and
Speaker 01:you still
Speaker 02:kind of put yourself out there and I was always very shy so for me this was not natural at all and this was a bit scary also in a different country in a different language you're dealing with other cultures and it was a little bit difficult for just the personality that I have but well it worked
Speaker 00:wow I didn't know you went there so early though so that's something new I learned about you yeah And you stayed there for bachelor, so for three or four years. Four years.
Speaker 02:Out of them, I had one semester abroad in Sweden, but then I stayed there for four years, more or less, minus this one
Speaker 00:semester. Nice. So how was then moving from Edinburgh to Sweden? Was this also a big change for you or it was maybe easier this time to do this step forward? And maybe it's also different because you know you will only be there for six months, right?
Speaker 02:Yeah. Sweden was actually, I don't see it as a mistake necessarily, but I think at the time I was like, oh no, oh no, what did I get myself into? First of all, normally when you go on an Erasmus, you go to have fun, right?
Speaker 01:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 02:Which I didn't do. I went to a place where, you know, we had good courses and I could get really good experience as a student.
Speaker 00:More like a geeky motivation.
Speaker 02:Exactly.
Speaker 00:What is good for my career.
Speaker 02:Yes. So I saw it that way, which is not exactly the purpose of Erasmus, I think. And I was a little bit like, okay. And Sweden is also... maybe a bit more complicated in a sense that life is quite expensive. Going out is a bit... pricey and you are a broke student and you are just kind of there cooped up in your and it was also a winter semester so we started in january and then progressed into like
Speaker 01:may it was cold as well
Speaker 02:it was cold it was snowy it was dark and i think for the first three months i was like properly depressed yeah it was really even though i grew up in the same um zone in terms of climate and and amount of light that we get in the in winter in estonia it's pretty similar and like it's right there with Stockholm it was hard I think after Edinburgh somehow it was a difficult experience that this changed and also I felt like people are much less friendly and even though you have still a very international community it was much more difficult to make friends and since I didn't feel good mentally I also didn't feel like putting myself out there that much And... then once spring came and it started to be much more like nicer outside there's more light then I started to feel a little bit better but still I didn't fully I don't think I fully enjoyed my time there like I had a very very good one of the courses that I took was really good it was a really great experience I loved studying there but I didn't love being there yeah and I was kind of happy that you know it's just one semester I'm not stuck there quote unquote for years year or longer and I think the good part about it was that it was kind of close to home I could just take a ferry and overnight and then be with my parents and there were because I was taking courses that were at master level, they were a bit differently structured. And there were some weeks in between the courses that were kind of for exam prep or whatever, and I could do it at home. So I could just take my notes, pack my laptop, go home and just be home with my parents and kind of study from there. That, I think, saved me multiple times. But yeah, overall, I don't think that this was... the Erasmus experience that people then fondly think about and reminisce about.
Speaker 00:Yeah, yeah. Usually it's like drinking, going out, choosing a cheap country to have a lot of money with the money you got. But I guess... I also didn't choose like... typical destination my destination was Vienna usually people from Croatia go to Czech or Poland or something like this right even Spain it is what it is right
Speaker 02:yeah so did you also choose it for the studying for advancement of your career
Speaker 00:I did and also it was like a bus ride from Zagreb only for five hours so not too far as well But I was mostly selecting the universities based on the courses that they had, because most of the students from my faculty lose a year or lose the semester if they go to Erasmus. They need to take the courses in Croatia again. So I was kind of selecting the program that would allow me to do all the courses simultaneously right so that i don't have to extend the studies and i like the idea of living in vienna it was um also not too affordable but i think the stipend was okayish um And in the end, I was in a dorm full of, you know, Balkan people. So it was... It felt
Speaker 02:like home.
Speaker 00:Yeah, it also felt like home. There are many Bosnian students and generally in Austria, there are many Balkans working, living, studying. So for me, it wasn't too big of a step and cultural difference as some other locations were. But, you know, still it wasn't so simple to live in another country for the first time. You are faced with some administrative stuff with learning how to live and communicate in a different environment. I also wasn't too much of a social butterfly.
Speaker 01:So
Speaker 00:that was big step out of the comfort zone to meet people. And I could really feel my brain changing shape while doing so. It was so uncomfortable, but I was becoming a different person. And then when I came back to Croatia, I was like so relaxed, so chill. I could really approach to anyone after this experience. But I think at the time, Vienna for me was the most difficult because I just started dating my husband, boyfriend at the time, and we did the long distance. So he at the same time did Erasmus in Poland, smart choice. I did in Vienna. And we were at the peak of being in love, right? So for us, that was difficult. And that was the... like turning point wherever we go we go together so from that moment we also change many countries but always together and I think that was the lesson that I learned in Vienna that I'm not a long distance person
Speaker 02:well that's a good
Speaker 00:relationship person yeah
Speaker 02:yeah yeah Funnily enough, this is also the lesson that I learned in Vienna.
Speaker 00:Yeah. Okay, nice. So let's continue. Vienna was during my first year of master's studies. So my bachelor was in Zagreb and then Vienna master's. And you did your master's, if I remember correctly, in Paris, right?
Speaker 02:Yes.
Speaker 00:Yes. Okay, so let's hear more about this stuff. Let's hear more
Speaker 02:about Paris. So Paris, first of all, I lived in Paris over summer for two months between my third and fourth year of the bachelor. And that was actually something that I'm super grateful to Sweden for because of the courses that I took in Sweden, I applied to this summer internship program. See,
Speaker 00:it was worth it.
Speaker 02:It was meant to be. It was
Speaker 00:meant to be.
Speaker 02:A match made in heaven because there was... Not a lot of labs that were doing exactly what I was interested in, but there was one that was working with a bacterium, Helicobacter pylori, that is causing ulcers and gastrointestinal problems and gastric cancer. And they were... So I was interested in cancer at the time as well. And they were kind of, okay, maybe, you know, we need to see if we are a good match. We had an interview and I just had... some lectures on helicobacter and how it was discovered how it was found and so i knew kind of the history of this of the situation i was fascinated by that because there is a a moment of like an example of scientific um or like sacrificing oneself for science because the guy drank culture to prove that it's it is in fact causing gastritis and ulcers and Yeah, not cancer, ultimately, they healed him afterwards. But I was fascinated by the story. And I was talking about it in the interview. And then they took me for the internship. And it was, I think, also a pivotal moment, like a turning point in my work, because I fell in love with Paris. And I was like, okay, this is it. This is my home for the next decade. some time i want to stay here and i found this master's program it was like an international program that was just one year because i already completed four years of bachelor so i could kind of go just for what for the last year of the masters and i yeah i lived in paris for a year um tried to apply for phd in the same lab where i did that summer internship and didn't work out unfortunately or unfortunately I mean it led to other opportunities so but it was a great time I think now looking back at it I probably wouldn't like to live in Paris now in a stage of life where I am now but at that time it was amazing like living in Paris as a young person I think this is you know everybody has to experience this for a little bit it was beautiful it was fun I think Parisians are also not known as being the most welcoming or friendly people, especially if you don't speak French, which I didn't. I didn't speak French. Maybe just little bits and pieces here and there. But it was also like a big step out of my comfort zone and a lot of efforts required to deal with French bureaucracy and things that are just working in loops and in the end not really working at all. But I think... it first of all it teaches you a lot of things but also i just i was so in love with the city and i had already friends there because a lot of people who did that summer internship then returned for phds or for other things and i had i had already a group of people there um and it was just fun and exciting and beautiful so i didn't really care about all the other negative aspects There were plenty. There were plenty of also other not very good things. Like I had a mouse in my room, in my dorm. That was just a pet that they didn't ask for. But among other things. But yeah. I honestly, like, I didn't care. But also it's a completely different experience when you come there and you already have some people, you already have a group of friends. Definitely. So it was, yeah, it was a little bit easier than just starting from scratch. But,
Speaker 00:yeah. Did you live alone or you had some roommates? Yeah. Both like in Paris and before in Scotland.
Speaker 02:So in Scotland and in Sweden, I lived in either shared flats or shared dorms where you would have your own room, but then everything else would be shared. In the same way I was sharing a flat in my last years in Edinburgh. But in Paris, I had a little studio dorm.
Speaker 01:Okay,
Speaker 02:lovely. It was a university dorm, but it was my own little kitchenette, my own little toilet and bathroom that I had full control over, which I also think one of the lessons that Paris taught me is that I don't really want to share a flat
Speaker 01:anymore.
Speaker 02:I still had to afterwards for some time, but then I was very quick to move in with my husband and be like, okay, no more flatmates anymore.
Speaker 00:It's a win-win situation to find a partner where you're not super rich yet. So sharing a rent comes in really handy. Exactly.
Speaker 02:Yeah. So what about you? What was your next step after Vienna?
Speaker 00:Next step after Vienna was coming back to Zagreb for two more semesters. And then last semester of my master's thesis, I applied for a second Erasmus to do a master thesis abroad. And my choice was German Cancer Research Institute in Heidelberg. So I was also all in cancer research. So both me and Ivan found our internships there. And this time was super nice. We lived in like an old German house, like a bit on the hill, two of us. So it was the first time living together. It also comes with pros and cons, of course, but think all in all more of pros. We were both super enthusiastic at the time. I think this new energy when you're a master student, you kind of are finishing all your education. All the courses are getting easier. So you really realize that you're an expert in the field. And we enjoyed our projects there. My biggest challenge in Heidelberg was actually, I really went fully into bioinformatics, into programming. And that was keeping me busy all the time. That was like my comfort zone extension for this period. But all in all, I think we thrived with friends. It was like weekly after work beers. There were many... gatherings this was a huge institute for me and basically every two weeks someone had a birthday we're celebrating together there were christmas parties easter parties so i think germans were not really famous for their openness but i think this was a nice community in the institute and it worked really well so I never felt alone. There were like many in my lab, it was only like males, it was bioinfo lab. But the lab next door was experimental lab. And there were like many, many friends. So we did a lot of gossips. So it was really fun. And what else I have a note with Heidelberg. Yeah, so Heidelberg was kind of a love story moment because it was the time where I think both Eva and me decided that like we want to spend our life together. It was also the point in our relationship where we did have some arguments, but everything was getting crystal clear like that's it. And we would like to come back to Heidelberg to see the Schloss the castle and kind of remember those romantic moments it's pretty nice city so I think it's in my good memories yeah
Speaker 02:it is it is very cute
Speaker 00:yeah it's cute it's cute it's like a student town so and old rich German town so pretty different than the rest of Germany I would say
Speaker 02:yeah How was it? Because when you're moving somewhere alone or when you're moving, as was my experience in Paris, for example, when you have some friends and when you're moving somewhere with a partner, it's a very different dynamic as well. Did you feel like in some way this maybe held you back a little bit from forging new connections and new friendships? Because you want to spend, especially since you're in the height of your romantic history, you want to spend more time with your boyfriends. no husband instead of putting yourself out there and interacting with other people and finding friends
Speaker 00:yeah i think it is it's it's a different way of spending time together we would always come as a couple more or less and it was different in for example in vienna i had more one-on-one like outings with female friends we would go to coffee or something and In Heidelberg, it was mostly groups of friends. And among those groups, there were also couples. So I think that's the biggest difference. When you're single versus a couple, you tend to stick to bigger groups, at least in my experience. And most people in these bigger groups are couples as well, right? So that was the dynamic. But in a nutshell, you only want to spend time with your partner, right? So we also did a lot of alone time. And I didn't feel this as a drawback because it was only like eight or nine months in Heidelberg. And, you know, reality is probably you won't meet your friend for life there in such a short... I mean, it happens sometimes, but rarely, right? So I think it wasn't any of a big loss here or that... yeah
Speaker 02:my experience I think was that yeah when we moved with my husband we moved here I mean it was already like some time into our relationship so we it wasn't like super fresh or anything but it was it felt like yeah we kind of don't want anyone we don't need anyone so we just want to
Speaker 00:be together yeah we enjoy time together only us right and I think it's good I think it's even more difficult couples from Zagreb, for example, that lived in the same place the whole time. Then they met the significant other. And then there is a period in the relationship where they want to be more alone. And I think then friendships tend to fade for a little bit. It happened with my relationship during high school. For example, I was only focused on my boyfriend at the time and not so much on friends. But yeah, I think when you move, most of the friends are here just for a short period of time, the ones that you moved, the ones that you meet in these places.
Speaker 02:Okay, what was the next step then after Heidelberg?
Speaker 00:Oh, for us, this was a really exciting one. It was Singapore. the first time ever traveling to a different continent everything was so different there we went there for four months i got a scholarship and even when they're just like yeah let's go what the hell and then eventually find the internship as well and uh We were there only for three or four months, but it felt like years because of many new, different, unique experiences. It was so different than everything that we knew. And I think this shapes, this distorts the time a little bit. When your days filled with so many new experiences, you feel like you relived something completely. over and over and over and over. And we got engaged in Singapore, so it was also like a pretty romantic part of the world for us. We also traveled. It was also on a budget, everything. It was like students' internship. It's not much money, but we were creative with finding cheap flights to Philippines, to Malaysia and all around. And it was also nice to experience that. And I really cannot say anything negative about this. It was also the time where I did first time ever 30 day of yoga with Adrian. And I was doing it every single day. So first time in my life, I was so consistent with my yoga practice. I think it was also transformative experience for me then. And the food was so good. I'm just like, Singapore is very, very dear place for me. We also had some friends from Croatia there. A professor is doing sabbatical there. So we also had some people to do barbecue with. Would recommend. It was terrifying to go there, of course. Yeah. But we just felt so ready to do something crazy. It was... We graduated before that and we were like... People were mostly doing, let's go to Thailand after graduation. But you know, we didn't have money to afford such trips. We needed some kind of scholarship for that to work. And I think we found a way.
Speaker 02:This sounds super exciting. Like I need to talk to you about it separately because Singapore is like a dream thing for me. I had a lot of friends from Singapore in Edinburgh and we also did a lot of like, okay, there's some events, some societies where you can try the food and I don't know, whatever, interact with this culture, with these people. And it was just, they were so friendly. They were so beautiful people and really amazing food. So this is a, definitely like a bucket list thing for us
Speaker 00:oh yeah it's also we we did the trip recently to celebrate our five-year um anniversary and it's also pretty child-friendly so i heard that yeah yeah much much recommended yeah
Speaker 02:sounds really cool it was interesting coming back there right
Speaker 00:yeah oh yeah that's that was really nice everything and nothing changed mm-hmm
Speaker 02:I am really curious I think this could be even a separate thing because this kind of coming back to places that were so important or so formative to you how does it feel and does it feel sometimes maybe it's disappointing sometimes it's like ah I feel so good here like we me and my husband we went to Edinburgh for just a few days um Coincidentally, Edinburgh was the place where I realized I felt that I was pregnant, but I was still too early to know for sure. And then we came back and found out. But yeah, it was also such a trip that I was like, oh my God, and I want to show you everything. And this is where this happened. And this is the flat where I lived. And this is my first dorm. And it was like, I mean, it was also a bit different because I was showing this to my husband and kind of like connecting him to all these places that were so important to me. But yeah, it was a lot of fun to come back
Speaker 00:and
Speaker 02:re-experience this.
Speaker 00:And where did you two meet exactly? Which, which country was it in?
Speaker 02:So this brings me to my next step
Speaker 00:after. Okay. Right.
Speaker 02:This was when I realized that I did not get that PhD position with the helicobacter lab that I wanted. And I was in Paris at the time after. So I spent the summer back at home. Then I came to Paris and, waiting for the phd news and then it was a no so i was like in in limbo in paris couch hopping from one friend to another not really finding a flat not really like and i was applying for a lot of jobs and phd positions in there and everywhere and i applied to a job in portugal
Speaker 01:This
Speaker 02:is a whole story in itself because I was thinking about it recently because there is now this trend on Instagram and on social media about the butterfly effect
Speaker 01:and
Speaker 02:how people usually kind of misunderstand it a little bit and they compare like a big event in their lives like being fired from a job and then another big event happened as a result. But for me, my butterfly effect was a tiny little insignificant thing during my master's While I was doing my final project for my thesis, I read a magazine that was just randomly lying around next to our coffee machine. And while I was sipping my fifth espresso of the day, I was browsing or I was looking through this magazine and I saw an interview with a director of this institute in Portugal. And I've never considered Portugal in general. And I never heard of this place. And I saw, oh, okay, institute. I googled it. I saw that it's like 15 minutes from the ocean. I was like, oh, that must be nice. You know, 15 minutes walking from the ocean. You can just go to the beach after work. And then I forgot about it. And then when I needed a job, I looked at the website of this institute. There was one single job posting at the time. that fit very well with what I could do technically. And I applied to it. I got it. Oh,
Speaker 00:wow.
Speaker 02:And this is how I met my husband.
Speaker 00:It's a real butterfly effect.
Speaker 02:It was a very tiny thing.
Speaker 00:One page in a magazine.
Speaker 02:Yeah. And then, yeah, I moved to Portugal. It was a small city close to Lisbon. It's like part of the big Lisbon area. agglomeration, but I decided I chose to live closer to work, closer to institute, which is where I, again, had to share a flat with flatmates, and this reinforced my idea that I don't want to do that anymore. There were not some nice people there. And the work was, I think... The Institute was amazing also for international people because they were doing a lot of after work events. They had a yoga teacher there, they had a choir, they
Speaker 01:had an
Speaker 02:improv group. That was really fun. Also, I think culturally, in terms of work environment, it was really nice because people didn't... Then it was a very crazy time when I moved from Portugal to Vienna because I realized not everywhere is the same. But there in Portugal, people were taking their time for lunch and taking their time for coffee, which I thought... at the time was maybe a bit too much, but now looking back at it, I think, okay, this is what you have to do. Like you have to take your time to eat because if you are just like Python style, swallowing an entire sandwich in three minutes while staring at your computer, that's a red flag in my books. And there it was like, you know, you have a, you drink a coffee outside in the sun and you chat and it was amazing. also a lot of PhD students in that lab so a lot of people kind of at the same roughly the same age roughly the same life stage and we forged some nice connections and I was also trying to do something like put myself out there and organize something for the lab or for some other friends from the institute we were going to escape rooms and partying in Lisbon it was also really exciting a great experience because I was sort of also in this in-between limbo. I was working. So I didn't feel like I was a research assistant. I was not a PhD student. So I didn't feel this need to just devote all of myself to my project, even though ultimately I still fell into this trap. But I felt like I have more ownership and more like direction to... more capacity to do something outside of work and also people are maybe more open to doing something outside of work and more interactive more like looking for more balance maybe themselves and not just work work work work work and strictly professional relationships so it was yeah it was a great place to be Great institute, great people, great country. Also, nothing bad to say apart from, well, the salaries could be better, but that's...
Speaker 00:Yeah, I notice it's like either one or another or you enjoy life or you have much money, right? Yeah, unfortunately. Usually the countries around the sea that are more chill and really know how to take the lunch break and coffee and how to catch the sun and enjoy, right?
Speaker 02:Yeah,
Speaker 00:yeah. But when you know that you don't need much money, right? You realize that...
Speaker 02:In a way, yeah. In
Speaker 00:a way,
Speaker 02:yeah. You could maybe have a very happy life even without that and yeah I mean Lisbon has a big place still I mean obviously my husband is from there so it still holds a big place in my heart but we go there quite regularly to visit family but it's even you know even without having met my husband probably I would still try to visit it regularly because I love the city love the people and it's it's probably one of the places where I felt like okay I can see myself here
Speaker 01:I can see myself living here.
Speaker 02:Which is, yeah, I'm curious. Let's finish our list of countries for you. What was your next step after Singapore? And then I'm curious to talk about this kind of sense of home and identity.
Speaker 00:And so after Singapore, we came back to Croatia for a month or two, not much. And this was right like a month before COVID started. That's the timing.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 00:And as we got engaged in Singapore, we're like, why not to get married? Because our idea was to move to Switzerland and that was our goal, our dream. I think ever since Heidelberg, we kind of discovered Switzerland, how nice it is there, and we really wanted to do our PhDs there. So we were kind of building up to be ready for entering the Switzerland and getting a job there. And we were like, why not to get married before moving to Switzerland? It will be easier with visas, with everything. And then like in 10 days, we planned the wedding, did everything, got married and moved to Switzerland, which was quite nice because when we came back from Singapore, we had zero euros, nothing. And the wedding gift was really enough for us to be able to afford the rent for the first month of living in Switzerland. So I think here... And of course we didn't think about anything. We were young and crazy, but life kind of unfolded in a nice way there. And Ivan got a PhD position in Switzerland, south of Switzerland in Lugano. And I went there with him without any plans with just the trust that I will find something nice. And then week after we moved to Switzerland started the pandemic. So it was pretty uncertain time. But luckily we lived in a bit uphill again overlooking the Lugano Lake and the forest was just behind our house, our apartment. So I have to say that it was a really nice time. We could go for a walk even when the lockdown was there and We're kind of in this bubble of, you know, being freshly married, but still it was a great wave of uncertainty here. So I couldn't say we were like enjoying it to the fullest. But now when I think back, it's also quite nice and crazy time.
Speaker 01:Just
Speaker 00:like imagining that we have like only enough money to live for a month and we have this full trust in life that something good will happen and it did. I wish I have this right now, you know, this tiny amount of craziness. And... unbelievable trust in life. And then in a few months, I also found my PhD position. I started firstly as a research assistant. Then when I see if the lab is a good fit, I decided to do a PhD. And at some point, we moved from the south of Switzerland to north of Switzerland around Zurich. And we're here now. So that's the story. That's our last location for from the list uh it will not we will not stay here forever we already have our next one where we want to move in few years but i think i will talk about this more maybe sometimes later or in the next episode um but mostly it's it's now switzerland our our long desired destination
Speaker 02:okay so for now this is home
Speaker 00:Yeah, for now, this is home.
Speaker 02:Which brings me to my question. Like, how are you feeling? Have you felt this sense of belonging in other places? Or do you fully feel it in Switzerland? Do you still feel it in Croatia when you go home? Do you feel like, okay, this is where I belong. This is me. This is my home. How does it work for you?
Speaker 00:So I have to say that I haven't... The first time I was thinking about home was only when Adrian was born. Before that, it wasn't even in my mind. I felt home wherever I went. And when Adrian was born, I started feeling home in more than one place. So one part of home is here in Switzerland, but What is new after Adrian is home is also in Croatia. Even though he was born here, my roots, I think we talked about this in one of the episodes, are extending and gravitating there as well.
Speaker 01:I
Speaker 00:would even say that I'm feeling more home in Croatia, more than here right now. And Switzerland... I like to say it as a temporary home. That's
Speaker 02:very interesting how also this is a change of motherhood. It's for you meant more pull towards your roots and towards
Speaker 00:you. Yeah. And you know, I wasn't like this before. I only wanted to run away from Croatia. I was so ready to see the world, to travel for different experiences. and was frustrated by the way things work in Croatia. And now I'm starting to accept these little imperfect things. It's hilarious, you know, I was always complaining how the trams are crowded in Croatia and they're like always going up and down and you don't like feel nice. And then we were driving in Adrian in Tram and he was laughing so hard because the drum was, you know, going bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And I think that was the moment when I was like, you know, Switzerland is perfect in every aspect, perfect country. But then I realized it's not all about being perfect. It's really about feeling where you belong the most.
Speaker 02:Yeah, there is something inexplicable, I guess. In the end, it ties you to a place.
Speaker 00:Yeah, so that's the feeling, the current feeling for me. But I'm still curious to hear your transition to Vienna after Portugal, right? Was this the final destination and the one that you currently live in?
Speaker 02:Yeah, it is. I mean, for now, again, for now, it's a final destination.
Speaker 00:I
Speaker 02:moved here for a PhD and then my husband moved a few months afterwards. He found a job. He was finishing his job in Portugal and then found a job here. And we had maybe four or five months away from each other. He was coming here from time to time for PhD interviews or for job interviews. I went there for holidays and we went on holidays together at the end of the summer and then from October. So I moved here in like May, end of April, May, and then October he started his own job. So he moved here, which is, yeah, when we realized that, okay, long distance is a no-no. Let's not do this anymore. And, you know, eventually we... got engaged and got married and now we're definitely not traveling anywhere apart from
Speaker 00:each other anytime soon
Speaker 02:not anytime soon yeah yeah so Vienna is for now the final destination but I also don't know what life will bring and where we will end up I do feel this itch of going somewhere, but at the same time, after having moved countries so many times, when we just moved here, I felt a little bit like, Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. after his birth I feel much better here because of a lot of objective reasons but also some subjective ones I feel much more comfortable being here and I think this is where we will stay for the time being maybe for the next 5-10 years at least but there is I think I feel what you mean there is something inexplicable about other places including Estonia in my case that when I travel there with him I do feel a little bit better about my home country than I used to. I also can relate to this feeling like I just want to run away. I just want to escape from here. I want to go somewhere else where there's more opportunities and more things. And now coming back, I'm like, huh, maybe this place is not that bad. Yeah. And yeah, so this definitely also changed with my son being born. And my attitude towards Vienna changed after his birth.
Unknown:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 02:But yeah, I feel like my identity and my sense of home is also so different after having experienced this many moves and this many changes that it's really hard to say where I belong anymore, where I truly feel home. I do feel like Edinburgh could be one place. Paris, maybe not so much anymore, but I could see myself there a few years back. Lisbon... Also, maybe, but also there are some factors that are pros and cons to being there, living there with a small child, especially. I truly don't know where home is anymore. And in the end, I mean, it is where my husband and my son are. So it's just us as a family unit is home. And in terms of places, I don't know. And also my sense of identity, who I am in terms of... citizenship, nationality, or like who I feel like is also, I feel like it's also changed so much that I don't feel Estonian. I don't feel, I mean, definitely don't feel Austrian. I'm not Portuguese. And like, I don't know, there's a bit of a loss and also a bit of a... like a molding together of all these things, of all these places and all these identities that make up something else entirely.
Speaker 01:And this
Speaker 02:is how I feel, I guess, like a tapestry of a lot of things.
Speaker 00:Yeah, I understand. And it's both you know yourself more and less at the same time. So I think for such a long time people would... get a huge sense of identity from where they come from or what they do as a living. And in this modern world, this is really changing. We are not anymore doing the same job for the lifetime, right? It's not so common anymore. And we're like citizens of the world, especially in people who travel a lot, live in different locations. And I think it comes with... lots of new ways of knowing yourself and equally a lot of new ways of feeling lost and not being sure where is the place where we belong if there is such a place anyways right
Speaker 02:definitely
Speaker 00:and it's truly it truly nice to know that you can live wherever you want at this point nothing is permanent and who knows maybe you know once the kids are 18 we will live in such a wild places you never know but I like what you say that the home is where your husband is and your son and I think if we prioritize this, we will always be home.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 00:And I think I would also add the home is where our little rituals are. And this we can bring with us even in a small suitcase and have it all around the world.
Speaker 02:Definitely. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's a challenge for sure, but also... these experiences and this attitude that home is, you know, a place that we create by being with family or by bringing our, our unique support systems and rituals with us. It gives you such a sense of courage as well that, you know, wherever you are, you can, you will probably feel lost at times or for a little while, but you can always find your way
Speaker 00:back but you're solid right nothing can nothing can get you out of this yeah you will have your i don't know sunday pancakes ritual you will have daily coffee rituals and i think this is what we do in like little things we do in our everyday life and people who we do with this is the foundation
Speaker 01:yeah
Speaker 00:and you never know if a fire will come earthquake Anything can happen, right? And in the end of the day, home is just a place.
Speaker 02:In you.
Speaker 00:In you. A house is just a place and home is in you, yeah. Yeah, indeed.
Speaker 02:I have to say that all this moving is also coming with like losses and grief in a way because of, I think, friendships that stay behind. This is something that I... haven't fully like found yet in Vienna I think like a group or even people are constant in
Speaker 01:life
Speaker 02:because of this mobility academic mobility or whatever like you're moving and everybody else who's around you is also moving and it's so fluid it's in constant motion people come and go you come and go And it was really hard to kind of find established friendships or now you have friends that are abroad, that are far away. Some are closer, but also as we grow and as families grow, things change, life stages change. It's more and more difficult to just spontaneously visit each other over a weekend or holiday. And it does bring a sense of like, yeah, I guess a sense of grief that... we are far apart or further apart than maybe we would like to be. And how do you deal with this? Do you feel this as well?
Speaker 00:This is a big one. I think we haven't talked enough about the friendship aspect. For me, my, let's say, foundational friends are in Croatia. Because those relationships formed during high school and university years mostly. I think for you, this is different because you were forming these strong bonds in Scotland, right? So when I think about friends, they're in Croatia and every time we come back, we have a chance to be with them They're always there. And this, for me, this feels super important and super nice knowing that I will find them there, that they will be available for coffee. Another type of friends, the ones you mentioned that we lived with for a short period of time and got really close together. And now we are in different parts of the world. These are difficult friends. And I'm missing those people so much. We were so close together. And the way this relationship look like right now, I also like how this looks like. It's mostly visiting each other once in a year, once in two years. But this is always such a heartwarming experience. Those are usually sleepovers.
Speaker 01:We
Speaker 00:come to their place, they come to our. Okay, now ever since we have a son, it's not so often, but I really like visiting a country and we will do a stop in a friend's place and had a nice time. And we know that we are always welcome there and they're always welcome at our place. So this is the form those friendships still exist in. And we were recently, we were traveling back to Croatia with car going through Munich and there were friends who we knew from in Heidelberg and we were just like, oh yeah, let's have a coffee together. And it's always a yes, even though it's like once in five years this happened, but I think it's also something that is unique for us who are in this kind of situation that we can see those people five years after enter their apartment and act like nothing happened even though i know we wish to see them more often and we wish to be able to send them a message are you for a beer after work and just go with them spontaneously but it is what it is but i i think there is a special place in heart for those those kind of friendship and we will never forget each other I
Speaker 02:mean even if the connection is lost and you don't you don't talk to each other anymore not because you fell out like not because you had an argument or anything but just because life happened and kind of brought you apart I still think regularly about a lot of people from like my days in Edinburgh or Paris ceremonies and They definitely hold space in my
Speaker 00:heart. Where did you have the strongest relationships? Was it in Edinburgh or Paris? Or maybe both equally?
Speaker 02:I think the strongest, honestly, the ones that are still there and like we are a presence in each other's lives was that summer internship in Paris that then grew into a year in Paris or however long because people came back. And so with these people, we are still there and we try to meet regularly. It's a bit more complicated now because out of this several people, most of them are now parents as well. Okay. One of them just became a mom a few, like two weeks ago. Oh,
Speaker 00:nice.
Speaker 02:So yeah, very exciting. We are going to try to see each other with all our kids and introduce the kids as well this year. And like, I keep my fingers crossed that this works because I am looking for, I'm really looking forward to seeing them and also seeing how they change through their matrescence. They're becoming a different person, a mother and, and how also the kids will interact this is going to be super curious yeah and yeah i think this was the strongest one the strongest connection i guess because we we were already maybe like 24 25 and you kind of you were kind of mature you're kind of the person that you are already you are not going through this we were roughly at the same life stage and then our life progressed in a similar way And I think it is important because if you are in very different life stages, it's also difficult to support that friendship because if you are a parent and your friend is still in like early university days mode where you are just partying and drinking a lot, it's not impossible, I guess, but it's more complicated to be
Speaker 00:friends still.
Speaker 02:So, yeah.
Speaker 00:yeah the same situation definitely helps
Speaker 02:yeah and I think this is also how we now find friends as adults and find connections as adults like now it's more I guess mom groups and yoga with babies and this kind of stuff because
Speaker 00:you need to be creative do the things that go together well
Speaker 02:yeah And finding connections and finding your community was, I guess, very easy. It's like we talked in the previous episode as well. It was so easy to do it in university. You're just there with like the same lectures or the same labs and you're kind of...
Speaker 00:Yeah, you really don't have to take an effort. You just need to be a little bit friendly. Not even much, but a little bit. Not even
Speaker 01:much, yeah.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I mean, you didn't need to do much. And I think, also one thing that I really love about UK is that in, I think in all universities there, or in most of them, you have the concept of societies, which, so like, based on hobby, based on the country that you come from, or are interested in, based on languages, based on whatever, you
Speaker 01:can...
Speaker 02:whatever you can imagine there is probably a society for that and in edinburgh there was like i took so many dance classes of different kind of like salsa or whatever tango and true societies and i met a lot of people and a lot of friendships were formed because of that and so it was very easy like you didn't need to do much you just need to be a little bit friendly and maybe a little bit like not a couch potato like go to a dance class and you are guaranteed to come out of it with some connections already and then yeah as we grow and lifestyles change life stages change it's becoming a little bit more complicated but yeah i guess if you are
Speaker 00:and i have to notice that we also become more selective when we grow um I'm now much more selective than when I was 21, right?
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 00:So I guess at the same time, it's difficult to find friends, but also we don't want to spend our time on friends that don't really fit us. So it's the both way. Now we only want to find friends who resonate with us and make us feel good.
Speaker 02:yeah i think now even more so after becoming a parent and like your your time is limited and you really you you want to be fueled by your connections instead of that's right that's right yeah it which makes it complicated but yeah i guess it also helps a little bit because then things kind of Non-resonating friendships tend to fall apart by themselves
Speaker 00:at this stage. It's zero effort. Those kind of relationships will just go away by themselves, which is a helpful thing.
Speaker 02:Okay, I
Speaker 00:think that was a long one.
Speaker 02:It was a long one. We discussed a lot. I feel like this is a very rich topic to talk more and more and more about mental health aspects
Speaker 01:and
Speaker 02:maybe pressure, like more from the point of view of your career and being in academia, pressures that you experienced to move around or not?
Speaker 00:I think both of us are non-standard academics, right? We are not pursuing this dream of really moving to countries to become professors one day. So it would be interesting to discuss this kind of thing because when I was starting my career I didn't mind moving so much but if I now wanted to continue the career it would require moving to another continent probably to searching for a lab and I definitely don't want to do that now but one big topic is families who are academics imagine both of them being academics there are many conflicts here in career not a big chance that they'll both find the position they want in the same city, right? So I think there are tons and tons of challenges, especially in academia. Also with kids, moving with them is not easy. I think that's also a big topic to discuss at some point.
Speaker 02:Yeah, definitely. We will have to revisit this conversation, maybe bring somebody who is in this situation to talk to them about that. I would love to hear some other opinions and some other stories regarding that. Because yeah, you're right, there is so much to think about when you're both academics and with kids
Speaker 01:involved.
Speaker 02:Maybe somebody has to sacrifice, but then how do you work around that? How do you choose? And it's very complicated. But yeah, this is a plan for the future. So
Speaker 00:it would be nice to have an interview with someone. I will try to think of someone who I know in this stage.
Speaker 02:Yeah, definitely. But for today, I think we can wrap it up and wrap it up. And I think this was a beautiful discussion. We talked about a lot. And in the end, yeah, as you said, we're non-standard. We have non-standard journeys for love or yeah, for love of a person, for love of a place and not really for career as much, even though,
Speaker 00:even though it started maybe
Speaker 02:in
Speaker 00:that way. And then as our, as we changed, we adopted the plan and,
Speaker 02:Exactly. So I hope that maybe it's an inspiration for somebody. Maybe it's a different perspective that people can learn from. And yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing so openly all your love stories with different cities and your love story with your husband.
Speaker 00:Yeah, the same, same. We learned something new about ourselves.
Speaker 02:Well, thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. And we'll see each other soon.
Speaker 00:Next time.
Unknown:Bye-bye.
